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Oppenheimer (2023) (1 Viewer)

ManW_TheUncool

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Who’s to say other than the filmmakers that it was unnecessary?

Shrug.

IF it always only matters what the filmmakers wants/thinks, there would be no point at all to film criticism and debates, LOL -- and probably no point in any discussion about films at all other than just to say whether one likes or hates something or how many are in one's collection or the like, not much more, LOL. Anyway, I only said it's debatable and clearly wasn't arguing that it was "gratuitous" (and also wasn't necessarily arguing it's unnecessary myself... but that it's probably reasonable enough critique, ie. debatable)...

_Man_
 

Carlo_M

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Sure we can always say "everything's debatable" and "everyone's entitled to their view".

But there's a difference between levying an accusation of whether a few brief topless shots amounting to 1-2 minutes of a 180 minute movie, whose subject was a known womanizer, is gratuitous versus if it was 10-20 minutes of Caligula like depictions in a 2 hour movie.

When it's such a small amount, levying the charge of gratuitous/unnecessary implies there should have been no nudity whatsoever (unless one is arguing that maybe 20 seconds of nudity would have been okay, but not 80 seconds). And/or that the filmmaker perhaps put it in as some kind of draw to get people to see the movie who otherwise wouldn't have, to the detraction of the main plot of the movie (e.g. to have the creation of the bomb be simply a backdrop to a half hour of "Oppy Sleeps with Women") which in my view is not the case here.

So my point I guess is: yes everything is debatable, but some debates may be more rooted in opinions which may be informed by the historical views of the society/community one has spent most of their life in. For example, French audiences may have missed that there was any nudity in Oppy at all :laugh:
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Who is the arbiter of what's necessary, though? To oversimplify, historically the U.S. has been more restrictive in their views of nudity on camera, but gratuitous in its depiction of graphic violence, whereas other countries the trends are reversed (or both are restricted).

Not sure if you're going there, but don't think anyone here's suggesting we should restrict such levels of nudity/sex portrayals... at least anymore so than already done.

It's just critique, which is certainly plenty subjective (that everyone here presumably agrees). Don't think anyone here is suggesting any absolutes about such (nor to want a heavier hand from MPAA, et al or anything like that).

To me, part of his personality was as a womanizer. As such, I found nothing gratuitous or unnecessary with regards to the brief periods of nudity (1-2 minutes? of a 3 hour film).

Some just feel they didn't need to see (that much of) such portrayed to that degree, and I have no idea how faithful/truthful those elements/scenes were to Oppy's real story myself -- for me, that would probably factor into my critique of such, but again, I'm not actually personally weighing in on it (at least all that much), particularly since those are fairly fleeting enough moments/scenes in a rather long, epic scope film...

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ManW_TheUncool

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Sure we can always say "everything's debatable" and "everyone's entitled to their view".

But there's a difference between levying an accusation of whether a few brief topless shots amounting to 1-2 minutes of a 180 minute movie, whose subject was a known womanizer, is gratuitous versus if it was 10-20 minutes of Caligula like depictions in a 2 hour movie.

When it's such a small amount, levying the charge of gratuitous/unnecessary implies there should have been no nudity whatsoever (unless one is arguing that maybe 20 seconds of nudity would have been okay, but not 80 seconds). And/or that the filmmaker perhaps put it in as some kind of draw to get people to see the movie who otherwise wouldn't have, to the detraction of the main plot of the movie (e.g. to have the creation of the bomb be simply a backdrop to a half hour of "Oppy Sleeps with Women") which in my view is not the case here.

So my point I guess is: yes everything is debatable, but some debates may be more rooted in opinions which may be informed by the historical views of the society/community one has spent most of their life in. For example, French audiences may have missed that there was any nudity in Oppy at all :laugh:

Heh... I do wonder though if some actually just found the brief amounts of sex/nudity in such an epic/long film to be jarring enough to stand out and perhaps feel more gratuitous than otherwise...

And since all of that was w/ just 1 woman, I actually don't get the image of Oppy being a womanizer from that, especially since most of it was portrayed before his marriage, if that's actually the goal -- it's also not like the movie spends time listing/exploring all his indiscretions, etc outside of that 1 woman either... :P

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Carlo_M

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Although only one was shown nude, the other was shown having a romantic affair with him while married to another, so to me, his philandering ways are evidenced by more actions than just "bewbs onscreen". But again, compared to his life's work and contributions to science, society, etc. his philandering ways was by far a smallish part in comparison. And as such, 1-2 minutes out of 180 feels just about right to me.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Although only one was shown nude, the other was shown having a romantic affair with him while married to another, so to me, his philandering ways are evidenced by more actions than just "bewbs onscreen". But again, compared to his life's work and contributions to science, society, etc. his philandering ways was by far a smallish part in comparison. And as such, 1-2 minutes our of 180 feels just about right to me.

I think some probably took more issue w/ the (fairly) explicit portrayal of what's imagined (by whom I'm actually not completely clear given how it was shot) in the deposition scene than the rest.

Most seem to think that was Oppy's imagination -- and I've heard that's Nolan's intention -- but to me, the way it was shot makes me think it's not actually his imagination, but a projection of everyone else's (imagining about Oppy or what he might be feeling, etc) instead.

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mskaye

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Sure we can always say "everything's debatable" and "everyone's entitled to their view".

But there's a difference between levying an accusation of whether a few brief topless shots amounting to 1-2 minutes of a 180 minute movie, whose subject was a known womanizer, is gratuitous versus if it was 10-20 minutes of Caligula like depictions in a 2 hour movie.

When it's such a small amount, levying the charge of gratuitous/unnecessary implies there should have been no nudity whatsoever (unless one is arguing that maybe 20 seconds of nudity would have been okay, but not 80 seconds). And/or that the filmmaker perhaps put it in as some kind of draw to get people to see the movie who otherwise wouldn't have, to the detraction of the main plot of the movie (e.g. to have the creation of the bomb be simply a backdrop to a half hour of "Oppy Sleeps with Women") which in my view is not the case here.

So my point I guess is: yes everything is debatable, but some debates may be more rooted in opinions which may be informed by the historical views of the society/community one has spent most of their life in. For example, French audiences may have missed that there was any nudity in Oppy at all :laugh:
It's reality. Couples get naked in front of each other.
 

Tino

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This would have been a PG or PG-13 rated film if not for that brief sex scene. The nude scene alone would not have warranted an R rating.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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It's reality. Couples get naked in front of each other.

True that... though they're not usually doing it for everyone else to see of course (not even in the original, intended narrative of this film), heh... but in that sense, actually makes the deposition scene more apt/sensible (to me) if it's indeed as I thought (that what's seen is actually from everyone else's POV, not Oppy himself, as Oppy is being intensely and unfairly scrutinized there)...

_Man_
 
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Nelson Au

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True that... though they're not usually doing it for everyone else to see of course (not even in the original, intended narrative of this film), heh... but in that sense, actually makes the deposition scene more apt/sensible (to me) if it's indeed as I thought (that what's seen is actually from everyone else's POV, not Oppy himself, as Oppy is being intensely and unfairly scrutinized there)...

_Man_
What struck me about that scene was what it must have been like to film it. It might have been uncomfortable for some of the actors. That deposition scene specifically is what I was thinking, perhaps more for Cillian Murphy and Florence Pugh as to me it was showing Katherine Oppenheimer’s mindset. Plus Cillian Murphy said on Jimmy Kimmel how cold he was in those scenes as Nolan made the sets cold and how hungry he was because he was starving himself to make himself as thin as Oppenheimer was.
 

jayembee

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It's reality. Couples get naked in front of each other.

Which is why I always roll my eyes when in a movie or TV show, a couple is shown in bed, under covers, having a hot and sweaty lovemaking session, and then one of them hops out of bed for whatever reason, and they're wearing underwear.
 

Jeff Cooper

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I think some probably took more issue w/ the (fairly) explicit portrayal of what's imagined (by whom I'm actually not completely clear given how it was shot) in the deposition scene than the rest.
I always thought it was pretty clear that it was showing what was going on in Kitty's head at the time.
 

Joe Wong

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Which is why I always roll my eyes when in a movie or TV show, a couple is shown in bed, under covers, having a hot and sweaty lovemaking session, and then one of them hops out of bed for whatever reason, and they're wearing underwear.

Or the lady suddenly becomes all modest (while still in bed) and covers herself up (often with the blankets or bed sheets) so the man won't get to see her naked.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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I always thought it was pretty clear that it was showing what was going on in Kitty's head at the time.

Yes, agreed at least at some point in that scene... but not necessarily the entire scene though. IIRC, it starts out seemingly from everyone else's POV instead.

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The Drifter

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Recently saw Oppenheimer for the very first time, on the Blu-ray. Superb & disturbing. It definitely deserves all of the accolades/awards it's received. The 3-hour running time went by very quickly, and never dragged. The casting/story/editing/effects were all stellar, and the changes between time-periods/eras was smoothly done.

I also watched the documentary on 2nd disk, which was interesting & IMHO enhanced the film to a great extent.
 
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Colin Jacobson

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Which is why I always roll my eyes when in a movie or TV show, a couple is shown in bed, under covers, having a hot and sweaty lovemaking session, and then one of them hops out of bed for whatever reason, and they're wearing underwear.

Of course that's silly, but I think we all get that it's for ratings issues.

Same as the lack of blood in so many violent "PG-13" movies.

It's a goofy conceit but one we can easily overlook, methinks. :)
 

Tino

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What struck me about that scene was what it must have been like to film it. It might have been uncomfortable for some of the actors. That deposition scene specifically is what I was thinking, perhaps more for Cillian Murphy and Florence Pugh as to me it was showing Katherine Oppenheimer’s mindset. Plus Cillian Murphy said on Jimmy Kimmel how cold he was in those scenes as Nolan made the sets cold and how hungry he was because he was starving himself to make himself as thin as Oppenheimer was.
It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that that sex scene was enhanced by visual effects. Like they were filmed separately and spliced into that scene.
 

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