Yamaha's Response is even better than Onkyo :) (1 Viewer)

[matthew_rm]

When does the Denon 1803 come out?

 

[Norman L]

I was told in August at the NYC show.
Specs should be out later this month

 

[Tony Lai]

Just about every manufacturer has suffered some reports of their cheaper models not coming up to snuff (Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha off the top of my head).

I have never seen a conclusive rebuttal from any manufacturer. Why is that?

I would like to see an amp like a Rotel RMB-1075 subjected to the same 'stress' testing. And I await Rotel's expected rebuttal (!!!)

T.

 

[Mike Veroukis]

This is a very "hot" topic and I'm sure we would all love to see some real hard answers to this. However, I don't think it's gonna be that easy.

Norman,

There are many factors involved in benchmarking any product. I don't know if you're into computer hardware at all, but for every CPU or GPU you'll always see specs and benchmarks. One thing you'll notice is that different testers often come up with different results. This can be attributed to many things. Also, it's well understood by most that benchmarks rarely if ever give a real life representation of the product's true performance. Furthermore, it's also well known that some manufacturers optimize their products to look good in the benchmark tests while sacrificing real life performance.

So how does this relate to receivers? Well, why would anyone think it's not the same? Manufacturers know about independent benchmarking so they'd be pretty stupid to think they could fool us all and get away with it. I would argue that the tests they use are different and perhaps attempt to capture real life power ratings rather then a very unrealistic sine wave sweep.

Although benchmarking might seem very scientific it is very un-scientific to compare results of two tests when you don't know the details of each test. It is also very un-scientific to test only one sample and generalize for the rest.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that although you're right about the S&V reported power ratings, that is not the complete picture. Benchmarks are good, but you also have to listen to it and see for yourself. After all, do you want a receiver that passes benchmarks or one that sounds good?

- Mike

 

[Jon W (NoVA)]

Mike,
If you take a look at one of the computer benchmark sites, like Tom's Hardware for instance, you won't see just one benchmark, you'll see a dozen. Tons of high level, low level, and everything in between. There actually is a lot of good objective data for computers, and if you understand what the benchmark's are intended to measure, they are extremely enlightening and helpfull.
With the audio industry, I think it's quite the opposite of what you portray. First off, there are very few standards for publishing specifications, and the manufacturers will only report the specifications under the conditions which make them look good. If they can only do 100W at 1KHz then that's what they'll report. They know most consumers walk in to a store, check the price tag, maybe ask a salesmen, look at the features for the one with the most goodies within their price range, turn it on, listen and buy.
On the other side of the field, you have review magazines who rely on the manufacturers to supply them their goodies. So every review has to be a positive review or they risk ever being able to review that brand again. You can see it even with S&V and other magazines which do spec the equipment. They'll measure a unit with obvious measurable flaws, then turn around and give it a top rating.
Lots of people have access to $200 Athlon chips and can perform their own benchmarks. Heck, most of the benchmarks are freely available and anyone with a computer or processor can run them and check them on their system.
Audio benchmarks are quite another story, and your typical hobbyist (even one with a web review page) isn't going to own the calibrated equipment necessary to accurately measure a receiver's performance.
Basically it'd be a good start if receivers could come close to outputting their rated amps with a simple sine wave. Ideally, you'd also want to know the slew rate of the amp, the headroom and a dozen other parameters which most manufacturers simply are not going to provide you.
It's not exactly rocket science. Audio engineering is pretty much low tech.
But the marketeers would rather you believe it's "magic" ...
because that's easier to sell.
Imagine two ad campaigns:
#1) Buy the Sonny KY3939AS! The sound you live by. 120W of Puure Effekts (tm) surround power!
#2) Buy the Jon 5000! 70W all channels driven! Our intermodulation distortion is 6db down from the other guys and our slew rate more then double!
People would buy #1. They'd just wanna have the Puure Effekts processor and the 50 more watts. :frowning:

 

[Wayne Ernst]

While everyone is concerned about power, this has not bothered me and I own the Yamaha HTR-5560 (RX-V630). While I was a little alarmed at first, it fully does exactly what I need it to do and it does it comfortably.

I have 5 speakers (90 dB efficiency) and a 200 watt, 15" subwoofer. All of this equipment is located in a 15' x 21' x 8' room where I watch my movies. Yesterday, I watched Black Hawk Down and had the receiver set to -40 on the volume setting. A check with my sound meter revealed that the movie was being played at reference levels and the -40 level on my receiver would suggest there was a little more juice left, if I needed it.

These "lower powered" receivers are fine if you match them to the right speakers and you're not trying to fill too large of a room with sound. If you have a very large room, then, you'll need to look for something more powerful if you want adequate sound.

Myself? I'm quite happy with my $329 HTR-5560 receiver and it does just what I need it to do, even though one set of reports spec this receiver at 27 W/PC.

 

[Norman L]

Wayne,
You are correct, match the speakers and you will be fine.
However, now that you know the output you can.
I was not that lucky, I blew my B & W 's because I relied on the Onyko specs on the net. 80wx6.
Manufactures need to advise us correctly so we can match speakers correctly. That's my point.

Enjoy the sound, compare the sound but me aware that your best to buy low minimum wattage speakers if you do not know the true ratings from the receiver your looking for.

Check the magazine reviews lab tests.

 

[KevinCa]

I've noticed that most of the receivers out there don't state their Wattage with all channels driven.
So a good way to determine that is buy looking at the maximum power usage of the entire unit.
If a receiver draws 250 W from the mains, it's never ever going to exceed that in total power.
So the absolute maximum for that receiver would be 50W /ch with all channels driven.
But you still have to account for losses in transformer, supply, preamp section, display, and everything else that draws current.
So i think it's quite safe to assume that a 5.1 receiver which draws 250 W from mains (common wattage for budget receivers) will most likely never exceed 45W/ch all channels driven.
If you really want something that'll give you 100W/ch or so, start looking for stuff that weighs about 30-40 lbs or more, cuz that's one hell of a transformer you're going to need.