Smileboxed THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM -- Will it ever make it to Bluray? (1 Viewer)

[ahollis]

Originally Posted by NY2LA /t/290862/smileboxed-the-wonderful-world-of-the-brothers-grimm-will-it-ever-make-it-to-bluray#post_3892667
From what I can see it has been at least two years or more since Warners has said anything on the subject of Grimm, and a lot has happened since then. The technology now being used on the older Cinerama films was apparently not known of then, nor was the existence of an archival print, etc. And they never really mentioned what kind of 35mm composite element was used for the laser and current TCM showings and if that could be fixed up enough for MOD, did they? (Idunno 'cause I don't do facebook, but I bet not)

They posted something about two months ago. There is a lot of talk on their Facebook page about Grimm and Raintree. Both films that they said needed major dollars and work and they know the interest in the films. They did say they would not use the 35mm elements for it is not the complete film as was seen in the Roadshow and if and when they do decide to go forward they want to do it right and give us the complete film, including Overture, Prologue, Intermission and the rest of the complete experience.

All I am doing is repeating what they said, so please don't shoot the messenger.

The Cinerama Travelogues are in pretty poor shape, but hat's off to Pacific Theatres and John Sittig, who is a fine gentleman and great advocate for Cinerama, for going forward with the project to get the films out in the best shape possible and I understand they have even expanded the project to now include all the original films. I will be one of the first to order each Blu-ray that is released. But Warners is not going to put Grimm out less than outstanding and that is from their mouth,

Discussion is always good. It gets people talking and Warner does read this forum and listen to what we have to say. Who knows, these conversations could be the ones that get them to act. I do have the laserdisc and will not part with it until there is a Blu-ray.

 

[Matt Hough]

I saw Grimm in Cinermara at the Carolina Theater in Charlotte during its initial release. I was a preteen, but I saw and loved it. I knew it wasn't a great film, but it was wonderfully entertaining with its different fairy tales and the sometimes darkly creepy tone it had (Martita Hunt was shuddery to me, and I hadn't seen Great Expectations yet). FOund the music and songs lots of fun, too, so I was very disappointed when I bought that "soundtrack" LP set only to find it had a storybook motif rather than the music and songs only. I was completely delighted some years ago when a REAL soundtrack CD was released.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

I saw a segment in 3 panel Technicolor Cinerama at the Bradford Widescreen Museum about 7 years ago. It looked spectacular on the big screen!
Here's some info on the travelogue restorations. http://www.in70mm.com/news/2011/cinerama/index.htm

 

[ahollis]

Originally Posted by MattH. /t/290862/smileboxed-the-wonderful-world-of-the-brothers-grimm-will-it-ever-make-it-to-bluray#post_3892744
I saw Grimm in Cinermara at the Carolina Theater in Charlotte during its initial release. I was a preteen, but I saw and loved it. I knew it wasn't a great film, but it was wonderfully entertaining with its different fairy tales and the sometimes darkly creepy tone it had (Martita Hunt was shuddery to me, and I hadn't seen Great Expectations yet). FOund the music and songs lots of fun, too, so I was very disappointed when I bought that "soundtrack" LP set only to find it had a storybook motif rather than the music and songs only. I was completely delighted some years ago when a REAL soundtrack CD was released.

I got that same CD a couple of years ago. Some day's I can't get the elf song out of my mind.

 

[AdrianTurner]

I saw a segment in 3 panel Technicolor Cinerama at the Bradford Widescreen Museum about 7 years ago. It looked spectacular on the big screen!
Here's some info on the travelogue restorations. http://www.in70mm.com/news/2011/cinerama/index.htm

I saw that as well - but I think the audience on that occasion was told that Grimm was a lost cause and had been virtually destroyed in a flood. By the way, this year's Widescreen Festival at Bradford, commemorating the 60th anniversary of Cinerama, has announced a screening of South Seas Adventure and other TBA treats.

 

[NY2LA]

They posted something about two months ago.  There is a lot of talk on their Facebook page about Grimm and Raintree.  Both films that they said needed major dollars and work and they know the interest in the films.  They did say they would not use the 35mm elements for it is not the complete film as was seen in the Roadshow and if and when they do decide to go forward they want to do it right and give us the complete film, including Overture, Prologue, Intermission and the rest of the complete experience.  
All I am doing is repeating what they said, so please don't shoot the messenger. 

Well, we already know that the Overture, Prologue, Intermission, etc, DO in fact exist, as they have been broadcasting them for a couple years, now. So they DO have that stuff, even the music tracks of those bits were released on CD. Some have even said that they saw the full 3 panels now where the Laser cht off some at the ends. (I am not sure about that but others have the means and inclination to do a frame to frame comparison between the LD and current Broadcast transfer and post it if they want.) But there is definite proof that the prologue, overture, etc exist in more than one form, therefore there we can easily and rationally reject what the "Messenger" brings, and not accept that claim as an excuse for not using releasing the 35mm composite. And again, they didn't exactly do Mame and Boy Friend "right" or in their best form on the current MOD DVD.

The Cinerama Travelogues are in pretty poor shape, but hat's off to Pacific Theatres and John Sittig, who is a fine gentleman and great advocate for Cinerama, for going forward with the project to get the films out in the best shape possible and I understand they have even expanded the project to now include all the original films.  I will be one of the first to order each Blu-ray that is released.  But Warners is not going to put Grimm out less than outstanding and that is from their mouth,

Agree that Sittig is a nice guy who wants the best, but the fact is he hasn't been granted the full power to implement things as we, (including he) would really deem the best. Still its better than not having him around to advocate at all. So my Cinerama hat is off to him... or it would be if I could buy one, but I can't because Pacific doesn't really believe in Cinerama enough to keep such merchandise in their store, most likely since people want Cinerama merchandise a million to one over ArcLight merch.
As for Warners (the Horse's Mouth, or whatever orifice it actually came from ; ) stating they won't put out Grimm at less than its best, again there is evidence to the contrary, that they HAVE those bits ("the complete film, including Overture, Prologue, Intermission and the rest of the complete experience.") and HAVE released less than ideal transfers (Boy Friend, Mame) so rejecting that...

Discussion is always good.  It gets people talking and Warner does read this forum and listen to what we have to say.  Who knows, these conversations could be the ones that get them to act.  I do have the laserdisc and will not part with it until there is a Blu-ray. 

Now, THAT, Mr. Hollis is something I emphatically, TOTALLY and absolutely AGREE with! Nothing wrong with being a squeaky wheel, and no reason we alway shave to accept what studio spokespeople say, as they are more than occasionally not quite right.
Mr. Feltenstein himself repeated the very exaggerated "water damage" claim - which Strohmaier has since reported not to be the case. Not faulting Feltenstein, as he hasn't had the consistent close proximity to the actual material as the other guy. And perhaps Feltenstein's position is similar to Sittig's in that he may have the best intentions but not the absolute authority or degree of involvement. I asked GF about some less than ideal authoring and presentation decisions of some extras on the otherwise stellar My Fair Lady and Zhivago SE DVD sets a few years ago. His answer: he had nothing to do with all that. He wasn't involved. Surprising, no? Now didn't you think that George was the Ultimate Authority on Warner's catalog? Maybe he is more like a WB "Ultimate Collectors Edition" which is apparently compiled by committee, and often missing expected QA, details, and material... ; )
Now Mr, Hollis, do you have the ability to capture and post frame comparisons from the Grimm Laserdisc and TCM broadcast? I'd say we could lay out pretty clearly something that could illustrate what exists vs what has been claimed.

 

[NY2LA]

I saw Grimm in Cinermara at the Carolina Theater in Charlotte during its initial release. I was a preteen, but I saw and loved it. I knew it wasn't a great film, but it was wonderfully entertaining with its different fairy tales and the sometimes darkly creepy tone it had (Martita Hunt was shuddery to me, and I hadn't seen Great Expectations yet). FOund the music and songs lots of fun, too, so I was very disappointed when I bought that "soundtrack" LP set only to find it had a storybook motif rather than the music and songs only. I was completely delighted some years ago when a REAL soundtrack CD was released.

Cool - can you recall any more details on going to see it? I got the Boxed album as a kid, (from a cut-rate bargain table, marked down so much my mother didn't hesitate an instant. I was suprised to hear Charlie Ruggles narrate the whole thing, but I loved the book, which is where I think I first learned about Cinerama. As for the REAL soundtrack CD, do you mean the limited edition that came out doubled with music from another movie? Last time I saw a soundtrack of this widely marketed was a cassette reissue of the storybook album. But I haven't been on top of all the soundtrack CD releases in the past decade. I did buy the limited edition CD set. I already know the elf song and much of their dialogue verbatim.
Oh and my own memory of seeing the movie is very very brief... I just vaguely recall watching the dragon scene at our local theatre, which most certainly did not have Cinerama. Let's say I was under ten years old when it would have finally come around to "a theatre near you."
I don't recall ever having heard that Grimm was any less well received West, so I doubt it was a total flop. Seems to me its appeal is maybe broader than West actually since not all kids would sit through long western. I have read that Grimm actually looks much better overall because there was no use of 70mm stock or stunt footage this time.
Orphan: "You do like us, don't you?" Cobbler: "Do Not." Orphan: "Do too!" Cobbler: "Do Not." Orphan: "You've got to, because nobody else does!"
Elves: "Why?" "Why what?" "Why am I up?" "...Because it's Christmas Eve! ... good luck is what we bring, because we're good luck elves!" "I'd rather be a bad luck elf." "Why?" "'Cause he gave me a crooked mouth, that's why!" "Don't you like your mouth?" "NO!" "Then KEEP it SHUT!"
- Totally from memory. Was I pretty close?

 

[NY2LA]

I saw a segment in 3 panel Technicolor Cinerama at the Bradford Widescreen Museum about 7 years ago. It looked spectacular on the big screen!
Here's some info on the travelogue restorations. http://www.in70mm.com/news/2011/cinerama/index.htm

Thanks for the report, Mr. Furmanek! Do you recall what section of the movie it was, and was anything said about it?

 

[Bob Furmanek]

As I recall, it was a scene of the brothers writing in their library and there were also shots of the carriage in the forest. I'm sorry, but that's the best I can remember!

 

[NY2LA]

I saw that as well - but I think the audience on that occasion was told that Grimm was a lost cause and had been virtually destroyed in a flood. By the way, this year's Widescreen Festival at Bradford, commemorating the 60th anniversary of Cinerama, has announced a screening of South Seas Adventure and other TBA treats.

How did it come off to you, Mr. Turner? Nice looking? Entertaining at all? Isn't it interesting how far that damage rumor got so exaggerated and spread so far around - to being supposedly a "virtually destroyed lost cause"? Nice to know now that's not remotely the case. By the way, did you notice Bradford is also showing Grimm? Have they announced yet it's an IB tech Archival print, and that the other travelogues are likely to be from video? Even given the sources for the older stuff it would be interesting to look at those old Cinerama movies beyond what little we've seen (the first and the last) and see what all the excitement was about. Have you heard about the plans to show that stuff in LA this fall? I believe it's close to when the HTF meet is scheduled, maybe a week apart.

 

[AdrianTurner]

I seem to recall that the extract from Grimm shown at Bradford was of stunning quality, except that one of the panels was missing. That's the great thing about Cinerama - if one panel is missing, you can always watch two thirds of the image and not miss any dialogue, which is an advantage over single-strip film, isn't it? I think Bob Furmanek above has the details right. I saw the film only once, at the Coliseum Cinerama in London, and came away from it unamused and only wanting to visit Schloss Neuschwanstein in Bavaria. It's occasionally shown on British TV in a lamentably fuzzy print.
I'm saddened to hear that the print of South Seas Adventure might be dubious. Bradford has shown some absolute stinkers in the past and it's the reason I stopped going there. I got especially upset that they persisted in showing their terribly scratched and battered print of HTWWW, even though the colour and sound quality was outstanding. I think I'll contact them and ask for some technical details about their print sources before I fork out nearly $150 for a ticket for the 3-day fest.

 

[Matt Hough]

I think "The Dancing Princess" sequence is the one I remember most vividly. CInerama always worked wonders on point of view shots, so when the carriage is barreling through the countryside and we got that dizzying roller coaster effect, I just loved it and understood why we were in this special theater all dressed up wearing our Sunday clothes watching a movie on this huge screen. I do remember being a little scared of the dragon before it made an appearance. The sound effects made it sound so terrifying! I guess I was learning to appreciate surround sound even as a kid!

 

[Matt Hough]

Oh, I meant to add about the 2-CD soundtrack album. Yes, it was the limited edition album produced by Film Score Monthly that I was talking about. In fact, after talking about it last night, I plucked it off the shelf and hope to listen to it again later today while I prepare lunch.

All this discussion has really put me in the mood to see the movie again, too.

 

[NY2LA]

I seem to recall that the extract from Grimm shown at Bradford was of stunning quality, except that one of the panels was missing. That's the great thing about Cinerama - if one panel is missing, you can always watch two thirds of the image and not miss any dialogue, which is an advantage over single-strip film, isn't it? I think Bob Furmanek above has the details right. I saw the film only once, at the Coliseum Cinerama in London, and came away from it unamused and only wanting to visit Schloss Neuschwanstein in Bavaria.

Well, thank you, from the reports we've got so far there is good reason to think that this archival IB Tech print they plan to show of Grimm will look very good.
Ah, the London Casino, after Cinerama you probably know, got renamed the Prince Edward Theatre and was home to long musical runs of Evita, Chess, Mamma Mia! and now Mary Poppins.
Did you ever get to that castle? I understand it was built for Mad King Ludwig, and it's been used in Grimm, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Something for Everyone. That last movie hasn't been on video for decades since VHS.

I'm saddened to hear that the print of South Seas Adventure might be dubious. Bradford has shown some absolute stinkers in the past and it's the reason I stopped going there. I got especially upset that they persisted in showing their terribly scratched and battered print of HTWWW, even though the colour and sound quality was outstanding. I think I'll contact them and ask for some technical details about their print sources before I fork out nearly $150 for a ticket for the 3-day fest.

I don't want to needlessly turn you off the Bradford content/quality so early on; what I have come to understand, I'm pretty sure, is that South Sea Adventure, WindJammer, Cinerama Holiday, etc. Would be screened from the new digital files being scanned (and substantially cleaned up) from either 3 strip or composite sources, for Home Video release. It seems to me that this would look arguably better than the faded/damaged or otherwise less than ideal prints of these titles they may have shown before. Personally, if i could afford the trip, I think from what we know thus far, it would be worth the trip. Being an anniversary year I think they will bring out some nice stuff. It seems pretty likely we'll see most of the same Cinerama stuff in LA come fall. I would, however prefer Bradford's or Seattle's 146 degree louvered screen to the 120 degree sheet at the Dome.

 

[NY2LA]

I think "The Dancing Princess" sequence is the one I remember most vividly. CInerama always worked wonders on point of view shots, so when the carriage is barreling through the countryside and we got that dizzying roller coaster effect, I just loved it and understood why we were in this special theater all dressed up wearing our Sunday clothes watching a movie on this huge screen. I do remember being a little scared of the dragon before it made an appearance. The sound effects made it sound so terrifying! I guess I was learning to appreciate surround sound even as a kid!

Thanks for that excellent engaging recollection, I think you pretty much nailed the kind of things I find appealing and pointed out rather well why this movie is worth another look and some effort to get it back on screens.

Oh, I meant to add about the 2-CD soundtrack album. Yes, it was the limited edition album produced by Film Score Monthly that I was talking about. In fact, after talking about it last night, I plucked it off the shelf and hope to listen to it again later today while I prepare lunch.

Yeah that's pretty much what I thought, thanks for confirming it. Though i already have it a couple clicks away in my iTunes library, I also pulled out the set to check the liner notes, which I remember now are augmented on their site. (mental note to print them out).

All this discussion has really put me in the mood to see the movie again, too.

AHA!! That is exactly why I wanted to poke this sleeping dragon of a thread. Thank you!
I have it from TCM on my HD DVR for over a year now, but it looks kinda small and soft, in a deep windowbox on my flatscreen. Maybe Mr. Hollis or one of our other members can post some screen caps from his Laserdisc so we can compare to TCM.
You know what? Even in the less than ideal quality of the TCM LoDef version it is clear in the beginning that all three panels are all pretty much the same size... well actually the middle and right seem to be the same size while the left is a but wider... (?!?) then there appears to be (no kidding) what looks like a third join line close to the right edge of the picture. (WTF?) I'm beginning to think the bulk of this transfer is from the old laserdisc and the missing bits were added later and look better as a result.
Looking forward to hearing what the rest of you can see and figure out.

 

[ahollis]

 

[ahollis]

Now Mr, Hollis, do you have the ability to capture and post frame comparisons from the Grimm Laserdisc and TCM broadcast? I'd say we could lay out pretty clearly something that could illustrate what exists vs what has been claimed.

Sadly I don't.

I amazes me that Arc-light is not selling the Cinerama Hats. I got two hats (one red, one blue) a couple of years ago at the Arc Light when they showed HTWWW along with two t-shirts and a bunch of magnets with posters of Cinerama films. I also have original program for This Is Cinerama snd South Seas Adventure, which I have not seen and really want to. They has a whole shelf of Cinerama stuff at the time. Sad, you say it is not there.

 

[Matt Hough]

Thanks for posting that wonderful trailer. Brings back so many memories.

 

[AdrianTurner]

Well, thank you, from the reports we've got so far there is good reason to think that this archival IB Tech print they plan to show of Grimm will look very good.
Ah, the London Casino, after Cinerama you probably know, got renamed the Prince Edward Theatre and was home to long musical runs of Evita, Chess, Mamma Mia! and now Mary Poppins.
Did you ever get to that castle? I understand it was built for Mad King Ludwig, and it's been used in Grimm, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Something for Everyone.

Grimm played at the COLISEUM, not the Casino. The Coliseum had an even bigger screen and ran Grimm and then Mad World. It's now home to the English National Opera. It's also the location for the ballet sequence in Billy Wilder's Private Life of Sherlock Holmes.
Yes, I have been to that castle. It's also seen of course in Visconti's amazingly opulent and turgid four-hour biopic, Ludwig.
Thanks for the info about the sort of thing we might expect in Bradford. I'm 66% decided to go, but still missing a panel!

 

[NY2LA]

Grimm played at the COLISEUM, not the Casino. The Coliseum had an even bigger screen and ran Grimm and then Mad World.

Whooops! Not having been to London (which pains me a great deal) I have to rely on reference books and such, and I tried this past Christmas to get some reference books on London cinemas and theatres but with very little result. Got one decent book on the theatres, but the cinema "books" I found are all criminally thin and lackluster useless pamphlets (though priced as full size books). While I had come across much written about Cinerama at the Casino/Prince Edward, the Coliseum/National Opera's very existence, much less its Cinerama years, escaped my notice... until now. Thanks.