Buffy Season 3 problems ? (2 Viewers)

[Adam_ME]

I've only watched "Anne" so far, but I saw very little combing compared to the previous two releases. It's great to see these episodes look so good (and without PAL speed-up ).

IMO, PAL speedup is a small price to pay for keeping my Region 4 set instead of getting the Region 1 version. With the missing "Previously on Buffy" intros, the wrong mix of the title music on the first two episodes, possible(but unconfirmed) combing problems with the transfers, and numerous complaints about the packaging, I won't even bother replacing it.

 

[James Reader]

Season 4 is not supposed to be shown in widescreen, even if it was shot using widescreen equipment. On the R2 widescreen release there are many shots revealing more than is intended, such as hands moving scenery and filming equipment. In addition there is a lot of 'dead space' on the sides of most frames.

Season 5 seems to have sorted out most of these problems and probably is the first season that could be shown widescreen (but I think Joss still states it is primarily composed for 4:3 television).

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

James,
i'm a bit thrown by your post, you state that season 4 isn't supposed to be 1.78:1 like the R2 dvd's are, but then state that you can see more 'dead space' than we should on the 16x9 version's?

Are you sure you don't mean we can see more dead space on the 4x3 version's (since the matting has been removed revealing said dead space)? That would make more sense. I can't imagine seeing more dead space in the 16x9 version. I also can't imagine seeing more space on the sides either since the show was most likely filmed flat and matted to 1.78:1.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

The 4x3 version is the center of the 16x9 frame. As they were composing for 4x3, there isn't much in the sides of the frames.

 

[Dave F]

I won't even bother replacing it

Who said anything about replacing? I'm keeping 'em both!
-Dave

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Yes, but if the show was shot flat and simply matted to 1.78:1, the only dead space we should see is on the top and bottom of the frame NOT the sides when presented in it's raw open matte form. The info we see on the sides of the 16x9 version should be identical to what we see on the sides of the 4x3 version.

I think we can safely rule out anamorphic lenses right off the bat, that would make ZERO sense to film Buffy anamorphically, but is it possible these shows filmed in Super 35? That's the only scenario I can think of for what's been described. I have no idea why they would use Super 35 either, but that's the only thing that can explain that.

EDIT: Scratch what I just said about Super 35, I didn't figure for hard matting, truth is I forgot all about that process. :b

 

[James Reader]

They are filmed in widescreen and only the center of the image is shown on 4:3 televisions. They are not matted.
I think (but am not sure) that the widescreen shows are no longer shot of film but directly on videotape with new, 16:9 video cameras. Hence the lack of matting. (I'm pretty sure that most BBC programmes are shot direct to video using equipment like I mentioned above - of course, it may be different in America). I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong
You can see this working on the stargate tv releases (at least on the r2 versions, not sure about the R1 versions) as they show the widescreen version if the player is set to 16:9 mode and the 4:3 P&S on the fly version if the player is set to 4:3 mode. The P&S on the fly version is always centered in the middle and does not move (but shows the 4:3 broadcast versions).
See screenshots of Buffy Season 4 Here (Although these are not the best examples, and probably the lower example of Buffy and Willow does look better in Widescreen).

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Ahhh I see now, it appears that these shows were perhaps hard matted to 1.78:1 (if the matting can't be removed and they weren't shot anamorphically that's the only conclusion one could reach) and then zoomed in for the 4x3 version.
However this does support your statement James about seeing more space on the sides then intended, which makes me breath a big sigh of reliefe that the 4x3 version's were indeed intended by Joss and co.
WHEW!
It sucks though for those in R2, they aren't seeing the show in the OAR it was intended for. :frowning:
On a sidenote, those Gentlemen give me the freakin creeps! :frowning:

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

John,
It is shot on super 35 film, hard matted to 16:9, and center extracted for the 4:3 composition. The 4:3 is the more restrictive aspect ratio for which they compose. The 16:9 is effectively an "open matte" version, with the mattes being removed from the sides. In short, they shoot for 4:3 and protect for 16:9. This is analogous to theatrical films being shot for 1.85 and protected for 4:3.

That's one of the reasons why the last couple of seasons of The Sopranos look better in widescreen than the early ones. The recent ones are actually "composed" for 16:9 rather than "protected" for 16:9.

Regards,

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Ken is correct, they want to maintain the same headroom on both versions. Per Joss's request, the primary composition is for 4:3 protecting for 16:9

Angel Season 2 is 16:9 protected for 4:3, 3 and up are 16:9 ONLY

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Gotcha Ken and Jeff, that makes sense to me, thanks.
It's so hard keeping all this stuff straight sometimes.
Intended for 4x3 is all I needed to hear.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

So much for your retirement eh John?

 

[Adam Tyner]

Ahhh I see now, it appears that these shows were perhaps hard matted to 1.78:1 (if the matting can't be removed and they weren't shot anamorphically that's the only conclusion one could reach) and then zoomed in for the 4x3 version.

I guess you're not familiar with 3-perf, which is one common way of snagging a 1.78:1 image without 'wasting' film. I know a number of network series are shot that way (Super16 is also popular to achieve a similar effect), though I don't know if Buffy is or not.
An article mentioning using Super16 for 16x9 -- http://www.imaginenews.com/Archive/2...ext/DEPT03.htm
Discussion at cinematography.net re: 3-perf: page 1 page 2

 

[Scott Kimball]

'Nuther scratched disc 2 problem here. I'll be hitting Best Buy at lunchtime for a replacement. And I'll check it IN THE STORE.

Seems to me that they don't save much money on the packaging if they have to replace so many damaged sets...

-Scott

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Did ANYONE get an untouched Season 3?

 

[Mark_Wilson]

Mine was fine.

 

[Everlasting Gobstopper]

I'm gonna weigh in on the whole widescreen issue.

Angel Season 2 is 16:9 protected for 4:3

I've been watching a lot of season 2 eps in WS lately, and I've gotta say that for the most part it does not work compositionally in WS. It's very much the other way around: 4:3 protected for 16:9. I can post examples if you want.

 

[Donnie Eldridge]

I'm with you on that one. That and the difference in the packaging is well worth the price.

 

[Michael Hall]

I guess I'm in a small minority that wound up with an unblemished Season 3 set. Two of the discs (Buffy and Xander) weren't held into their hubs all too tight, but they weren't floating in the package either. I double-checked all the discs and none of them had a scratch on them. I would have to say that after hearing the horror stories on here, I'm a very lucky person.

 

[James Reader]

I'm with you on that one. That and the difference in the packaging is well worth the price.

Donnie, you're talking almost a 100% markup on the R1 price for the R2 set. I live in R2 and even I think it's a ripoff.

As regards to the PoBtVS sections (and opening music I suppose) this shouldn't be an issue because FOX should have used R2 masters (or the same edits if the R2 masters were PAL converted without going through an intermediately stage) anyway and done the R1 release right.

I don't see why Fox edit out the previously segments on Buffy and their X-Files sets. Isn't that just making work?