beginner DIY speakers & sub (1 Viewer)

[Dustin B]

I'm confused. Isn't SPL, especially when you get into the midbass and bass regions mainly a function of how much air the drivers can move? In that case the 281 can move twice as much air as the AV1+, so how could it play louder?

From the specs on the drivers the AV1+ can displace 0.22L, the HE10.1 0.21L (according to Dan the XBL^2 version of the HE10.1 will be able to displace a little more than the 281) and the 281 0.55L.

Either way I don't think you can go wrong. Although if music is more important to you than HT, I'd probably go with the AV1+ (and it's the smallest one too) or the HE10.1.

 

[Michael R Price]

Danny, that sounds too good to be true. I'd love to listen to the A/V 1+'s... do you know of anyone in the DC area with them?
I was thinking along with Dustin, that the larger woofers of the 281s would have less compression/distortion than the AV1s... is the point that this still holds true but that the AV1s are still capable of absurd SPLs that no sane person would push them to? Does this mean I'll need an even bigger amp to stress out my 281s? About that sanity stuff...
Anyway, Stephen given your size constraint I don't see a better choice than the GR products, short of going to Scan Speak drivers, or planars or something ($$$).

 

[Brian Bunge]

Michael,

If there isn't someone in your area with A/V-1+'s you'll still be able to hear them sometime soon. I am a few weeks away from being finished with A/V-1 and A/V-1+ cabinets which, once assembled, Danny will be shipping around the country for demo purposes. I know he already has a pair of A/V-1+ cabinets in maple and a pair of A/V-1's in maple and oak. I should be shipping him some A/V-1+ cabinets in cherry sometime this week or next. I just have to veneer them!

Dustin,

Keep in mind that the efficiency of the drivers is also important when figuring SPL capabilities. If the 8's in the 281's are less efficient than the M130's then they require more power to go louder. At some point they'll definitely surpass the M130's but that may take a lot of power.

Brian

P.S. Danny, I just finished applying the finish on my A/V-1+'s today. We used a new semi-gloss clear poly that kicks the crap outta the tung oil we tried! I'll have the speakers assembled before lunch time tomorrow!

 

[Mark Krawiec]

Well, fwiw, I'm working on a project that uses a pair of m130's from Danny and they are quite good. I can't speak to the bass performance yet, but the mids are really quite good.
Much better than atoms or titans. (I've got a pair of titans laying around somewhere-not bad, but the detail in the mids really isn't there.)
I would be willing to bet money that you won't be disappointed with any of danny's offerings.
The tempest is also an excellent choice as well

 

[Michael R Price]

Ah the Ellis 1801-style demo chain. I'd be quite interested... I've some some friends around here who'd love to give the AV1's a listen too.

Can I be reassured that if I am not limited by efficiency, the Kit281s will go louder/clearer than the AV1's? I am hoping I won't have to go for a subwoofer in the immediate future to satisfy myself.

A thought: if I can see woofers moving any significant amount, does this mean they are distorting the midrange? I understand that steady-state harmonic distortion isn't a problem until near Xmax but has excursion been correlated to increases in IMD or other midrange problems? I was thinking this is a possibility since I've seen some horn enthusiasts recommend 15" woofers even being crossed over at 80Hz.

Regardless, I apologize from hijacking this thread. Stephen, how's your system planning coming along?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Michael,
I'd assume the answer to "louder" would be yes, but you'll have to define what you mean by "clearer". I do not expect the 281's to have the midrange clarity or intelligibility that the A/V-1's or A/V-1+'s have. I haven't heard the 281's yet so I can't speak with any great authority.
Now I do have an Adire LCC and absolutely love it. I know that Adire is coming out with a 3-way tower to mate with the LCC. That, I'd be interested in hearing. Until then, I'll use my A/V-1+'s crossed over to my dual sealed SV12 cabinets along with a Tumult based sub dedicated for LFE (assuming they ever become available)!
Brian

 

[Michael R Price]

OK, thanks Brian. I see myself doing something to the 281's midrange in the future but for now, I'm fine with their clarity and detail. It's more like a bit of "nasal" or "rough" quality from the large woofers rather than lack of clarity, I think. Time for me to go listen to a good dedicated midrange again.

 

[Danny Richie]

A thought: if I can see woofers moving any significant amount, does this mean they are distorting the midrange? I understand that steady-state harmonic distortion isn't a problem until near Xmax but has excursion been correlated to increases in IMD or other midrange problems?

To the first question: No, not necessarily. This is where smaller drivers have a speed advantage (Admin note - personal attacks and name-calling are not welcomed here, and have been removed in this particular post. Do not continue this line of discourse on this forum to "prove" your point. It makes you look petty and devalues your comments).
Yes, it is harder for a driver to do two or more things at once. Playing a 300Hz note while exerting during a 80Hz note does mean some compromises.
Here is where the smaller sized driver has an advantage.
Larger drivers have more mass and more stored energy and inertia. They typically take longer to bleed off the energy and to stop. Smaller drivers are capable of coming back to a stop much faster than the larger heavy cone woofers. This makes them better at handling multiple inputs.
Plus, the lower the woofer plays the harder it is to be as fast and accurate in the higher frequencies. Lower frequencies means longer exertions.
Before this becomes a long discussion I will just leave this one at that.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Danny,

One clarification. The SV12's are 12" drivers with a sensitivity of 87dB. The SV10's are 10" drivers rated at 84dB 1W/1M.

Also, my A/V-1+'s are wrapped in cherry veneer. The grain was so awesome I couldn't bring myself to use the mahogany dye.I'll try to get some decent pics so that you can put them up on the site. If not, I'm hoping you'll have your own pair within a few weeks.

Brian

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Stephen, you didn't mention a budget in your opening post. Given that, I would have two recommendations, based on personal experience. First, on a low budget, I maintain, as Brian and others know, that Sound Clearing House kits are the best value around. I've built almost a dozen of their monitor-size kits and I have a pair of their towers that I veneered in rosewood (that 8" driver is very good) and I built their center channel.
Second, if you have a larger budget, I would recommend you go with Danny's GR Research kits for a step up in sound quality. He uses nice drivers. I can't comment on Adire kits as I haven't heard any, but there are several Adire fans around here. I will throw in a vote for the Adire sub drivers. My subwoofer is a sonosub Tempest and never fails to drop jaws. Main thing is to have fun D-I-Ying
Danny, you silver-tongued diplomat
My crude web site: http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index

 

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

Danny, you silver-tongued diplomat

I was waiting to see if you caught that!

 

[Danny Richie]

One clarification. The SV12's are 12" drivers with a sensitivity of 87dB. The SV10's are 10" drivers rated at 84dB 1W/1M.

Oh yea, I was thinking of your SV10's and do not know why I put SV12's insteed. Thanks for the correction.
I can't wait to see those Cherry enclosures.

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Brian:

Kinda hard to miss it.

I'm interested in how the cherry looks. Did you only poly it, and is that the wipe-on/brush-on poly I recommended?
What I really want to see is the two-part chemical aging product that makes cherry look like it's been exposed for a few years and what many woodworkers try to stain fresh cut cherry to look like. If you haven't tried it, I may just take the plunge and try it on a pair of BoseBusters.

 

[jeff lam]

Brian,
What happened to that 1803?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

I only used poly and no, it's not the stuff you recommended. It's the stuff I bought from the unfinished furniture shop. I still haven't tried the two part aging solution but now that I'm in the shop practically every day I will try it soon. But damn, these natural cherry cabinets look awesome! I just finished assembling the speakers!

Jeff,

I sold the 1803 to a fellow forum member in Canada. It's lunch time and I can't remember who it is now. My brain doesn't operate well as it is, but even worse without food!

Brian

 

[Michael R Price]

Danny,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I am aware of many opposing viewpoints, and maybe I'll be able to sort them out. Once I fix my amp problem (actually, not just that I have a crappy amp but that I recently blew its right output stage so I now have no amp at all) and get used to the hopefully improved sound of my Kit281s, I would love to listen to the A/V 1, 1+ or 3.

I am not concerned with needing a subwoofer to extend the bass depth of my system (which is fine) but rather to reduce distortion and improve dynamics. Am I overestimating the benefit of having a highpass filter on my speakers to get a clearer sound? I ask because James Johnson reported an 8-10db increase in clean output capability (he has the same speakers as I do).

As a side note, what do you think of the Neo8 planar midrange for a point source application (either monopole or dipole)? What would be the minimum crossover point that wouldn't compromise dynamics?

Thanks.

 

[Stephen_Rob]

I have a budget of around $1000 CAN and I will not need a sub because I bought a paradigm pdr-10. I know the tempest would be much better but I will be in an apartment and I figured it would be to much.

Is it better to make my on enclosure or buy the ones for the a/v-1+

 

[Brian Bunge]

Stephen,

Are you strictly looking at purchasing a pair of speakers or are you looking for a 5 speaker system for your $1000 CAN?

Concerning building or purchasing the A/V-1+ cabinets, I will tell you that if you order finished cabinets from Danny (which basically means from me since I supply his cabinets) you're looking at spending at least $165 US for each cabinet depending on the finish. It's up to you as to whether you want to spend that much or attempt to build them yourself.

Brian

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

And...I build his A/V3's
-Tower Man

 

[Danny Richie]

As a side note, what do you think of the Neo8 planar midrange for a point source application (either monopole or dipole)? What would be the minimum crossover point that wouldn't compromise dynamics?

As a stand alone mid-tweeter its vertical response is too limited, but as a mid-range unit only it actually might work really very well. I have not tried it yet.

Mating it with a Neo 3 would be a good combo.

I would be more inclined to stick with a monopole application.

600Hz to 800Hz is about as low as I would force them to play.

There is however a new Neo 10 in the works that will play lower. Stay tuned...