Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 4 (2016-2017) (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Cooper]

BTW, Aida was faking her injuries in the Framework to get Fitz to complete the technical specs she needed, right?

I was confused on what was going on there. I thought she would be a machine in the framework as well, but then the doctors mention her vertebrae being fractured. Also we see her jolted out into the real world when she landed from the fall, and she was shown still out in the real world at the end of the episode, so what was running her consciousness, when she was talking to Fitz from bed? So is her body permanently screwed in the framework, and whenever she pops in from the real world, does she just come into her bed ridden body? Can't she from the real world re-write her body in the framework so it's fine? Jemma was dead in the framework when she joined in, so it seems like that shouldn't be a problem.

Also I seriously doubt she would have to fake anything to get FItz to do whatever she wanted.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Aida's framework injuries didn't make sense to me. At first, I simply thought she was faking, but based on her being kicked out of the system, and complaining in the real world about her issues, it seems that she wasn't faking. It's a bizarre internal inconsistency - Aida is apparently in control of everything but can't control how she interfaces with the system? It's yet another storytelling decision that doesn't quite work or make sense to me.

I enjoyed most of the episode, though.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I did like how the episode shows that Aida is still working within her prime directives and doesn't have full control to just do whatever she wants. That explains a few questions I had. Pretty much all her actions that may seem 'evil' are from her finding loopholes in her directives, and she can't just out and out do whatever she needs to to reach her goals.

 

[Mark-P]

Here's my take, and feel free to call it hogwash. We know that Aida's greatest desire is to be truly human and that her plan is to create a real human body for herself. Perhaps she programmed her framework counterpart, Madame Hydra, to actually be human in the framework and therefore must obey all the laws of biology regarding that counterpart. And maybe the reason she can't reprogram herself healed is that she locked herself out of that capability?

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Here's my take, and feel free to call it hogwash. We know that Aida's greatest desire is to be truly human and that her plan is to create a real human body for herself. Perhaps she programmed her framework counterpart, Madame Hydra, to actually be human in the framework and therefore must obey all the laws of biology regarding that counterpart. And maybe the reason she can't reprogram herself healed is that she locked herself out of that capability?

Sounds good to me. The only issue I have with her being 'human' in the framework is that the fall should have absolutely killed her. I was expecting her eyes to open and her to get up terminator style when she was lying on the ground. I was genuinely surprised when she was in bed and the doctors were talking about her broken back.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Mark, I don't think your idea is far fetched at all, but I also agree with Jeff -- if Mark's theory is correct, then Aida should be dead based on that fall. I suspect she's actually fine and could get up if she wanted to, but is playing injured to get what she wants from Fitz.

But I think that point was vague in a way that was more annoying than clever.

 

[Mark-P]

Here's my take, and feel free to call it hogwash. We know that Aida's greatest desire is to be truly human and that her plan is to create a real human body for herself. Perhaps she programmed her framework counterpart, Madame Hydra, to actually be human in the framework and therefore must obey all the laws of biology regarding that counterpart. And maybe the reason she can't reprogram herself healed is that she locked herself out of that capability?

You know what? I'm going to flip flop on my own idea. After more thought it occurs to me that Aida probably is faking injury simply because a miraculous recovery would blow her cover as the human leader of Hydra. As for being able to survive the fall, hasn't anyone ever noticed that EVERYONE is superhuman in the movies? Whether it's Die Hard or Lethal Weapon, the amount of punishment the human body takes in these films would put a real person in intensive care, but they always just walk it off with a few cuts and bruises.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I lol'd at Coulson's "Alternative facts" line.

 

[Sam Favate]

BTW, I am very glad we're almost at the end of this season and nothing like last season's horrible "Who will die?" ad campaign has surfaced.

 

[Dheiner]

You know what? I'm going to flip flop on my own idea. After more thought it occurs to me that Aida probably is faking injury simply because a miraculous recovery would blow her cover as the human leader of Hydra. As for being able to survive the fall, hasn't anyone ever noticed that EVERYONE is superhuman in the movies? Whether it's Die Hard or Lethal Weapon, the amount of punishment the human body takes in these films would put a real person in intensive care, but they always just walk it off with a few cuts and bruises.

But, if she is faking it, why did they say that she had, I believe they said, "shattered C5 & 6 vertebrae" ? She has to be "flesh and blood" in the Framework. But if she is, there is zero chance that her skull would not have cracked like an egg on that landing.

 

[NeilO]

Well, almost all of them got out of the Framework. The big surprise were Aida's new powers. It will be an interesting final two episodes. Can they bring Hope to our world?

 

[Mark-P]

Riveting episode. I guess we kind of know the exit strategy, now. I would have preferred them not just waking up to their old selves but would rather have seen them struggling to differentiate between their two realities. At least Fitz seems to have been affected by his experiences.

 

[NeilO]

Riveting episode. I guess we kind of know the exit strategy, now. I would have preferred them not just waking up to their old selves but would rather have seen them struggling to differentiate between their two realities. At least Fitz seems to have been affected by his experiences.

Yes, Fitz is definitely suffering from his experience, but there is still some feelings for "Opehlia" there. It will be interesting to see what he does next week.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

The big surprise were Aida's new powers.

Lol, yeah. When her human body was constructing, I was thinking "How is this good for her?" It would have significantly de-powered her. Apparently not though...

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I started off enjoying this episode, but I was really exhausted by it by the time it reached the end.

I turned to my wife afterwards and said, "I might be just be a heartless bastard, but that last scene with Mac and his fake daughter did nothing for me." The problem is I know more than the characters. I know his daughter isn't real, and that by staying there, he's essentially committing suicide, choosing his imaginary fantasy (or the computer's idea of what his fantasy should be) over real life. I also have (and this may be another weakness of mine rather than the writers) very little patience for characters who have the truth revealed to them and then reject it. It was bad enough that it took weeks to convince our heroes that they were in fact our heroes. It was nearly unbearable to watch Mac discover that he was in a fake world and that the whole thing was a lie, and yet still decide to remain there. I didn't feel sad for him, I didn't feel sorry for him, I just felt freaking annoyed to be watching this. It's even worse because I'm sure they'll probably just send in whatshername to get him out at the end.

Both Radcliffe (before Fitz left the framework) and Coulson (afterwards) were exactly right when they said that Fitz should not hold himself responsible in the real world for things he was manipulated into doing in the fake world. I do not hold that the Fitz we saw in the framework was really Fitz. If you take away a person's memories and replace them with fake ones (in this case, of his father), you're changing who that person is. It's brainwashing of a form. I don't hold Fitz responsible for his actions inside the framework any more than I'd hold him responsible for things he did in a dream. I know the counterargument is that it is really him in there, but I just have a hard time accepting that. Maybe the guy in there is who Fitz would have become in a different life, but he didn't become that guy in his real life. It's like the hardware that is his brain is running different software - instead of it being "Fitz' real soul" it's been hacked and running bootleg software. So on one hand, while I rejoiced at Radcliffe and Coulson pointing out the obvious, that Fitz isn't responsible for his actions, that everything is solely Aida and Radcliffe's fault, I feel I'm going to be tremendously bored by what follows.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I lol'd at Coulson's "Alternative facts" line.

Annnnd they kept it going this week with "Fake News".

I started off enjoying this episode, but I was really exhausted by it by the time it reached the end.

I turned to my wife afterwards and said, "I might be just be a heartless bastard, but that last scene with Mac and his fake daughter did nothing for me." The problem is I know more than the characters. I know his daughter isn't real, and that by staying there, he's essentially committing suicide, choosing his imaginary fantasy (or the computer's idea of what his fantasy should be) over real life. I also have (and this may be another weakness of mine rather than the writers) very little patience for characters who have the truth revealed to them and then reject it. It was bad enough that it took weeks to convince our heroes that they were in fact our heroes. It was nearly unbearable to watch Mac discover that he was in a fake world and that the whole thing was a lie, and yet still decide to remain there. I didn't feel sad for him, I didn't feel sorry for him, I just felt freaking annoyed to be watching this. It's even worse because I'm sure they'll probably just send in whatshername to get him out at the end.

Yeah, as the viewer, that was annoying. I was half expecting Daisy to just quake him into the portal. That would have been the obvious solution, and even better, generated some actual conflict for the real-world stories, something that is a + for writers.

In terms of the characters mindset though, it kind of makes sense. Even if you know it's not real, if it feels much better than what the alternative is, even if it's real, if reality sucks would you choose to go back? This issue was also addressed brilliantly in 'The Matrix' with the below scene, and later when he said "If Morpheus has told us the truth, we would have told him to shove that red pill up his ass!"

 

[Joel Fontenot]

Yet, that scene at the end between Daisy and Mac had my wife literally crying... I mean she was sobbing.

I agree that I don't hold Fitz responsible. But Fitz is the one that's going to have a hard time with the whole thing. I knew he'd feel more for Agnes.

Josh, I think the point of this story is not whether you or I feel anything for what happened or didn't happen within the Framework. It's the effect on the main characters once they are out that we are supposed to care about. Whether they succeed it making you or I care is another issue.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Yeah, as the viewer, that was annoying. I was half expecting Daisy to just quake him into the portal. That would have been the obvious solution, and even better, generated some actual conflict for the real-world stories, something that is a + for writers.

Agree completely. I was waiting for that moment and was disappointed when it didn't happen. She should have either used her powers to push him in, or knocked him unconscious and pushed him in manually.

In terms of the characters mindset though, it kind of makes sense. Even if you know it's not real, if it feels much better than what the alternative is, even if it's real, if reality sucks would you choose to go back?

I guess that my answer is an unequivocal "yes" makes me somewhat unique, at least among characters in the show . The second I found out it wasn't real, I'd completely lose interest in my fake surroundings. I'm probably just an odd duck. I've had a lot of sadness and loss in my personal life in the last few years, and yet, I wouldn't want to live in an imaginary fantasy where everything was OK. I wouldn't want to talk to a computer simulation of love ones lost. It's just not for me. And on the flip side, there are people in my family who have faced exactly the same things I have, and I believe that they would choose to plug in and live a blissful lie if they could. But I just don't think I'm wired that way.

Though when the Matrix first came out, I didn't have any of that baggage, and I still wouldn't want to go back in. As far as plot twists go, having Joe Pantoliano's character want to go back was great for the story being told. But personally, it didn't interest me. The inside of The Matrix stopped being cool to me when it stopped being real. So on one hand, watching battles with Neo at the end of the first movie was cool and I liked it, but once Neo learned that life in the Matrix wasn't real, I stopped caring about what was happening to people inside who were unaware of the truth. Maybe I'm just a sociopath or something, I dunno.

Josh, I think the point of this story is not whether you or I feel anything for what happened or didn't happen within the Framework. It's the effect on the main characters once they are out that we are supposed to care about. Whether they succeed it making you or I care is another issue.

Completely agree. I think part of the reason that Daisy-Mac scene didn't get me emotional was because it seemed poorly written and conceived, the same way I objected to Daisy being upset about framework Inhumans being tortured by Hydra agents, since Daisy was absolutely aware that neither the Inhumans nor Hydra agents were anything more than 1s and 0s. Daisy's trying to win an argument with a brainwashed person, who is acting so out of character he doesn't resemble the person we know. The real Mac would not commit suicide (which is what staying in the framework is), especially when his friends are in mortal danger. That's not who that character is. The real Mac faced unimaginable loss, and came out stronger on the other side. So my first problem was that Daisy was trying to win an argument with someone who resembled her friend but was not actually the same person. And then my second and larger problem is, with the scene as it was staged and shot, if Daisy wanted Mac to fall into that hole, Daisy could have easily accomplished that. The outside world is under siege. Everything in the world that is important to Daisy is in danger. She's given a mission to get her teammates back, so they can, you know, save the world. This transcends personal feelings and wishes and hopes. Her character has an obligation to get Mac out of there, and she fails at that. And it's even worse because the way the scene is written and staged and photographed, it seems entirely plausible that Daisy could overpower Mac and rescue him. That she doesn't seems more like a writer's contrivance than how these people would actually behave. And that kind of writing always bothers me.

 

[Ahab]

One of the best shows of the season. My wife loved it also.

Wondering, since Fitz has now built a machine that can provide bodies for those in the Framework if perhaps Hope will be given a body enabling her to have a life in the real world.

Sorry Josh, but given Daisy's past history, I don't agree that it would be plausible for her to deny Mac the right to choose for himself the path he wants to take.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Wondering, since Fitz has now built a machine that can provide bodies for those in the Framework if perhaps Hope will be given a body enabling her to have a life in the real world.

Two things:

-They're gonna use the machine to bring Ward back.

-It's not really his daughter. It's a computer simulation based on who knows what. It wouldn't be a person that was brought back to life. It would be a ceeepy simulation of someone who's dead.