Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 4 (2016-2017) (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

The only thing is, Fitz would know that he actually did kill Agnes. At least what remained of her, since it was only her consciousness that was still alive in the Framework. Especially if he starts to think of that as what was left of her "soul". I don't know if they will go there, but you never know. I think that may be what Fitz would take with him out of the Framework.

That's a great point. The only thing is, I don't know how much I can really care that Agnes is dead. I don't know that I bought that her consciousness separated from her body was really the same as being a real person, so I'm not sure that I'm personally able to feel what the story requires for me to be worked up over it. In my mind, Agnes died when her physical body died - what's in the framework is a copy of her consciousness, but not the real thing. So, while what Fitz did ultimately did extinguish a voice from the framework, I'm not sure that I'd consider it a murder because I'm not sure that I'd consider that fragment of her consciousness to be alive. Just as I won't shed any tears for Radcliffe if he dies in the framework, because he's already dead.

Then again, if they can sell it in such a way that I believe Fitz is genuine in whatever his feelings are, maybe I'll be able to work through that I don't believe he killed a real person.

 

[Mark-P]

Josh, I guess you weren't a fan of The Matrix movies, then. Personally, I've found this trip through the Framework to be fascinating and am very happy with the prolonged stay. Also I don't get all the despair over bringing back Ward. Yes we all wanted evil Ward dead and gone because there was nothing left in him for anyone to empathize with, but what's wrong with introducing a good Ward into the show? I like Brett Dalton as an actor and would love to see him explore new avenues as a fresh character.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I liked the first one. Actually, it's funny you mention that, I've been meaning to revisit them.

I don't think I like Brett Dalton. I don't know him from anything else but in this show it doesn't work for me. He went from bland as good Ward to annoying as bad Ward to unbearable as Hive and I'm just kinda done with that whole thing.

I think it was fine as a segment within an episode or maybe an entire one but the framework concept is wearing thin for me. I'm sorry to keep complaining. I'm clearly in it for the long haul on this show but a bit bored lately.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

We're just trying to break you Josh.

Between Shield and Ben-Hur, soon you will be ours

This post really made me laugh out loud. I can't press "like" enough!

 

[Sam Favate]

I don't think I like Brett Dalton. I don't know him from anything else but in this show it doesn't work for me. He went from bland as good Ward to annoying as bad Ward to unbearable as Hive and I'm just kinda done with that whole thing.

The problem with Ward has been that since he was revealed to be Hydra way back in season 1, they made him do more and more things that were irredeemable. There was no way for him to come back, and they kept trying. Seeing him as part of Daisy's Framework life is one thing, but bringing him back after the Framework will be a bridge too far.

I fear they are going that route with Fitz in the Framework too. The audience wants to see him back in the real world with Simmons, but the more evil they make him in the Framework, the less plausible it will be for him to be with her.

 

[Dheiner]

Fitz and Simmons are just another proof that no one get a happy relationship for long one Shield.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The audience wants to see him back in the real world with Simmons, but the more evil they make him in the Framework, the less plausible it will be for him to be with her.

I don't see why not. The framework isn't real. Fitz isn't in control of his mind. He doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. It's standard issue brainwash stuff, really. I agree that it seems a likely direction for the show to take, but I don't think Fitz should feel any guilt. To begin with, he's in a fake world. Add to that that he's brainwashed. He doesn't know who he is, what job he had, or that there's a real world. He's being manipulated and used without his knowledge or consent. He's a victim here. But I do worry about having a long drawn out thing where we have episode after episode about Fitz' guilt, which I think would be misplaced. Being angry at Fitz for something he did in the framework in his current condition is like blaming the victim, or like being angry at someone in real life because of a dream you had.

 

[Mark-P]

I don't see why not. The framework isn't real. Fitz isn't in control of his mind. He doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. It's standard issue brainwash stuff, really. I agree that it seems a likely direction for the show to take, but I don't think Fitz should feel any guilt. To begin with, he's in a fake world. Add to that that he's brainwashed. He doesn't know who he is, what job he had, or that there's a real world. He's being manipulated and used without his knowledge or consent. He's a victim here. But I do worry about having a long drawn out thing where we have episode after episode about Fitz' guilt, which I think would be misplaced. Being angry at Fitz for something he did in the framework in his current condition is like blaming the victim, or like being angry at someone in real life because of a dream you had.

That's where you're wrong, Josh. It has been explained in the show that there is no mind-control going on. All the real people in the Framework have free choice. The only things that have been taken from them are their memories and one regret. This is what each of them would have developed into without that one regret and in a scenario where Hydra won the war. As for the "it's all fake and doesn't matter" argument, if I berate and harass you here on the forum, should I feel no guilt because we are having a virtual conversation and are not really talking to each other face to face?

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Josh, I think the issue is you're (rightly) allowing what you know to interfere with the story being about what the characters know. You know it's all fake, but to the characters themselves, it's all very real and they shouldn't be held accountable by you for not knowing. Of course Daisy and Simmons are the exception to this, and I agree with you about some of their actions being very stupid. But just because it isn't 'real' doesn't mean the story can't be compelling or interesting (i.e. The Matrix analogy that was brought up).

To me, the real story is that Daisy and Jemma needed to find out where the rest of their team's bodies were being hidden so they can rescue them. They went into the Framework, found out from Radcliffe that they're on a boat in Eastern European waters. The next part of the mission is retrieving them. I don't care about anything else that happens before then. Everything in the framework from the moment they got that answer from Radcliffe is just a distraction. Fitz being a bad person in the framework? Doesn't matter, it's not real, he's just programmed to be that way.

Actually the next part of the mission isn't just pop out of the framework, find their bodies and boom everything is great. It's already known that just unplugging them would be extremely dangerous for them, and that they have to be convinced in the framework that they should exit it willingly. So everything that is happening in the framework by Daisy and Simmons since they learned the bodies location is extremely important.

And I greatly disagree that they are 'programmed'. As presented, even though it's a simulation, their actions are really them and what could actually really happen if certain things had turned out differently. It is extremely real to them, and even though we know it's not 'real' that part is irrelevant in the equation.

Think of it this way. If you yourself found out that your life was all just a simulation, and suddenly woke up in 'reality', would you feel that everything you have known or done didn't matter at all, since it wasn't 'real'?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Excellent points, Mark. Really. I think I have a response to them but I don't want to even go there without first saying that I really do think that's an excellent point.

That said..

It has been explained in the show that there is no mind-control going on. All the real people in the Framework have free choice. The only things that have been taken from them are their memories and one regret. This is what each of them would have developed into without that one regret and in a scenario where Hydra won the war.

I'd argue that that is a form of mind control. If you take away my awareness of my reality, if you take away my memories and you take away my regrets, then I'm not myself anymore. Every choice i make in my life today is based on the years of life experience that led me to being where I am today. Take away those things, and am I still the same? If I'm making choices and decisions and carrying out actions based on incorrect/incomplete information, aren't I being manipulated in some way?

As for the "it's all fake and doesn't matter" argument, if I berate and harass you here on the forum, should I feel no guilt because we are having a virtual conversation and are not really talking to each other face to face?

Point taken. But I think that's maybe not the analogy I'd choose. If you had a dream about berating and harassing me, would you feel guilty about it when you woke up? How long would you carry that guilt with you? I'd say that specifically Daisy, who knows what's up, should feel guilty if she's a jerk to Gemma, who's also aware, but that Daisy shouldn't feel bad if she's a jerk to Ward, since it's not actually a real person.

Josh, I think the issue is you're (rightly) allowing what you know to interfere with the story being about what the characters know. You know it's all fake, but to the characters themselves, it's all very real and they shouldn't be held accountable by you for not knowing. Of course Daisy and Simmons are the exception to this, and I agree with you about some of their actions being very stupid.

I think you're absolutely right on both counts. I think I am also holding the entire show accountable for the stupid Daisy and Simmons actions when perhaps I should not be thinking so deeply about it! I think a part of it might also be that I look at this as more of a show about plot than character, so at the moment we started this story arc, I was very interested in plot. This framework story basically puts the pause button on the overall plot arcs for the series and season to focus on characters and how they're changed and there's that part of me that doesn't want to slow down to focus on the characters, I want to stay on the plot.

Actually the next part of the mission isn't just pop out of the framework, find their bodies and boom everything is great. It's already known that just unplugging them would be extremely dangerous for them, and that they have to be convinced in the framework that they should exit it willingly. So everything that is happening in the framework by Daisy and Simmons since they learned the bodies location is extremely important.

Put it like that, and yes, I agree. I think part of my problem was that I wasn't ready for the season to split into a third arc - I was under the impression that there were just two, and it was a major (and unwelcome) surprise when the last episode before the break ended and they said they'd be off that long. To my mind, the plot development we left on was that in the real world, the agents are being held hostage in that tanker, and the good guys need to go get them back. So everything that happens in the show between that last episode before the break where they got sucked into the framework, and whatever episode they get out in, feels almost like filler to me, because that's not the story I thought I was watching. I wasn't anticipating this detour.

I also watch SHIELD with the knowledge in the back of my mind that the show is not what I expected it to be in general. When the show was being launched, it was being promoted as a sort of "regular people in the Marvel universe cleaning up the messes left behind by the superheroes in the movies" - so I was expecting the series to examine the fallout from each new movie, as well as serve as a lead-in to whichever movie were to come next. And beyond the first season, the show hasn't really been that at all. It's not that I'm actively upset about it, but because I expected the show to have greater significance to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I think there might be some lingering disappointment in these extended storylines which in no way tie in with the movies. If that's not entirely fair of me, I would agree, but I'd also say it wasn't entirely fair for them to sell me on one idea and then give me something else.

Think of it this way. If you yourself found out that your life was all just a simulation, and suddenly woke up in 'reality', would you feel that everything you have known or done didn't matter at all, since it wasn't 'real'?

That's an interesting question that I just don't think I can give a good answer to -- I honestly don't know. It would be especially interesting if it was like it is in the show, where I had a real life, got sucked out of it and was made to forget it, and then returned to my real life with knowledge of both the real and fake one.

I'll get blasted for this but I was never the biggest fan of the Star Trek Next Generation episode "Inner Light" where Picard is basically in that situation.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Also I don't get all the despair over bringing back Ward. Yes we all wanted evil Ward dead and gone because there was nothing left in him for anyone to empathize with, but what's wrong with introducing a good Ward into the show? I like Brett Dalton as an actor and would love to see him explore new avenues as a fresh character.

I was wondering this as well, reading through the Ward hate, if the hate was because of Brett Dalton or Grant Ward.

I wasn't the biggest Brett Dalton fan until I played the video game 'Until Dawn', which he plays a main role in. His character in that game is awesome, and then I realized that Brett Dalton was a very good actor, because he made me hate Grant Ward so much that I passed that feeling onto the actual actor.

Miles Teller is another person like that. I don't like him at all because all the times I've seen him in movies, he's always been an asshole character.

 

[Mark-P]

Point taken. But I think that's maybe not the analogy I'd choose. If you had a dream about berating and harassing me, would you feel guilty about it when you woke up? How long would you carry that guilt with you? I'd say that specifically Daisy, who knows what's up, should feel guilty if she's a jerk to Gemma, who's also aware, but that Daisy shouldn't feel bad if she's a jerk to Ward, since it's not actually a real person.

Except that you wouldn't be interacting in my dream. Fitz is interacting with real people in the framework. So I think my analogy is actually more relevant than yours.

 

[Mark-P]

What will be fascinating is how the writers choose to have them come out of the framework. There are several scenarios.
1. They come out with their former memories restored and have no memories of the framework or the framework memories seem like a dream to them. This would be really lame as it would be like nothing ever happened.
2. They come out with only their framework memories so that they have to learn to adapt to the real world. As Simmons wouldn't be affected it would be her job to find a way to recover their lost memories. This would be an interesting twist.
3. They come out with both sets of memories intact and are disoriented because they can't distinguish which memories are real and which are not. All their framework experiences will have changed who they now are, so Fitz would be a much darker character now.
I really hope the writers go with scenario 2 or 3.

 

[Dheiner]

What will be fascinating is how the writers choose to have them come out of the framework. There are several scenarios.
1. They come out with their former memories restored and have no memories of the framework or the framework memories seem like a dream to them. This would be really lame as it would be like nothing ever happened.
2. They come out with only their framework memories so that they have to learn to adapt to the real world. As Simmons wouldn't be affected it would be her job to find a way to recover their lost memories. This would be an interesting twist.
3. They come out with both sets of memories intact and are disoriented because they can't distinguish which memories are real and which are not. All their framework experiences will have changed who they now are, so Fitz would be a much darker character now.
I really hope the writers go with scenario 2 or 3.

I'm hoping for 2. 1 would just suck, and 2 would result in Fitz (and May, probably) having real psych problems.

Speaking of Fitz...WOW! Daddy issues much?

 

[Steve Berger]

Wasn't Radcliffe going in and out to visit Agnes? He remembered both memories and wasn't confused. But, of course, he knew it wasn't real when he went in, like Simmons and Daisy. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Mark-P]

I'm hoping for 2. 1 would just suck, and 2 would result in Fitz (and May, probably) having real psych problems.

Speaking of Fitz...WOW! Daddy issues much?

Not to mention Mack, who would wake up to learn that his daughter is dead. He will be devastated and will beg to go back in. As for Fitz's daddy issues, Ada figured out that his father was his weakness and used that to manipulate him into becoming her minion.

 

[TJPC]

All I can say about the framework episodes is that they are making me wonder increasingly why I watch this show at all. I would not have minded one or two "dream world" episodes, but it seems to be going on forever. I am usually loyal to a show to the end, but am finding this plot turn absolutely tedious. Let's get back to the main plot please!

 

[NeilO]

That's where you're wrong, Josh. It has been explained in the show that there is no mind-control going on. All the real people in the Framework have free choice.

It really looks like Madame Hydra is continually reinforcing her hold on Fitz both verbally herself and through his father, and also it seems that when she touches his hand something is happening there.

All I can say about the framework episodes is that they are making me wonder increasingly why I watch this show at all. I would not have minded one or two "dream world" episodes, but it seems to be going on forever. I am usually loyal to a show to the end, but am finding this plot turn absolutely tedious. Let's get back to the main plot please!

As I mention above, from the look at the upcoming titles it appears to me that we have two more episodes in the framework. Then we'll finish off the season with 2 episodes in "the real world."

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Well if that opening scene wasn't a direct homage to the Matrix, then I don't know what is!

 

[Sam Favate]

I thought it was very good last night, with lots of sharp writing. Still not sure I understand the physical stakes in the virtual world, but I'm going with it. I do hope they get out of the Framework soon.

BTW, Aida was faking her injuries in the Framework to get Fitz to complete the technical specs she needed, right?