What Hirez Discs Have You Purchased Recently? (1 Viewer)

[Mike Frezon]

The best discussion I could track down--on the Sinatra rollout--starts here on SinatraFamily.com and goes a few pages.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Paul:

One other suggestion for you.

Not every fan of Frank is a fan of Dean...but this recording falls right in that "Swingin'" wheelhouse, too.



And in our earlier discussion about the Sinatra SACD releases I inadvertently left Swingin' Session off the list (with Swingin' Lovers and Swingin' Affair). Ooops.

 

[Paul.S]

Thanks for the Sinatra Family link. Will peruse and perhaps report back later.

What do you think of that London Symphony "Messiah"? Is there reason (interpretation, performance, sound quality) to get that if one has a "Messiah" they're fine with. I could be completely wrong but I'm not aware of that as a historic performance . . .?

Wow--no interest in Mahler 2, the "Ring" and Tchaikovsky ballets (but you do have interest in, say, Mahler 8, "Tristan" and Tchaikovsky symphonies?)? Or are you saying you have no interest in any of those composers' works at all? If the latter's the case, I'm curious if you ever spent some time with them and decided it wasn't for you or if you've always just avoided them?

Please report back about the Fagilioni Vespers disc. I have a Telarc CD of the Rachmaninoff "Vespers" but know little of the Italians in this regard.

Amongst many other grand voices that Miss Krall owes an aesthetic precursor debt to, Simone is one.

Speaking of Frank and swing, have we discussed this MoFi, Before Frank? I think you have it? It's still on my obviously long list of stuff to get. Part of me wants to be more active in the AVS SACD thread (since this thread has somewhat "devolved" into a conversation between about four people LOL), but another part feels like I already have dozens of high rez discs on my Amazon Wish List and don't need to spend more semi-regular time discussing and learning of even more stuff to buy!

 

[Mike Frezon]

What do you think of that London Symphony "Messiah"? Is there reason (interpretation, performance, sound quality) to get that if one has a "Messiah" they're fine with. I could be completely wrong but I'm not aware of that as a historic performance . . .?

Paul:

It IS an historic performance! Clive Owen and the London Symphony in 1966. It's really very, very good. Should you get it if you already have a favorite? Only you can answer that! I had a few...even SACD...and this one, I think, is the best. Fidelity is exceptional. That original recording must've been very good indeed.

As for Wagner and Mahler...none of it has ever clicked for me. Tried 'em. Didn't like 'em. Of course I haven't listened to it all...but I've got enough Mozart and Bach to keep me happy for the rest of my life. As for Tchaikovsky, I pretty much only know the high-profile works.

Before Frank? A must have. If you know Sinatra at the Sands, this disc is that...just without Frank. Basie and his band at the absolute top of their game. It's really an exciting disc. These were performances by Basie's band that were played (and thankfully recorded) that they played before Frank took the stage. I have the DVD-A of Sinatra at the Sands. This is fabulous stuff.

I got my BA of Can't Slow Down today. Worth every penny. When I mentioned "various" releases, the one I purchased is supposed to be a UK version of the release (I'm sure it's probably identical to the US version). And I have read about some high-rez digital downloads available. Online reviews are really positive.

 

[JohnRice]

If you want to discuss High Res Mahler, I have an embarrassing amount of it. I have full or nearly full HR cycles by Zander/Philharmonia, Tilson Thomas/San Fran & Gergiev/London, plus some individual ones from Slatkin/St. Louis (and 6-7 more cycles on CD), plus a fair amount of Tchaikovsky, though some of it is upscaled early Telarc recordings. The HR stuff is split between SACD and downloads from HDTracks.

 

[JohnRice]

For anyone curious about the tech stuff, I'm extremely happy with my HR playback, especially for downloads. For music I use an Emotiva XSP-1 analog pre-amp going balanced to an Emotiva XPA-2 amp and Thiel CS 3.6 speakers. SACD is played with a Marantz SA8004 and downloads are played from a HD with an Oppo BDP-103 using the IOS app, fed to an Emotiva DC-1 DAC then balanced to the XSP-1.

 

[Paul.S]

Mike: More later but a quick LOL in response to your saying "Clive Owen" re that "Messiah" conductor as opposed to Colin Davis.

If you want to discuss High Res Mahler, I have an embarrassing amount of it. I have full or nearly full HR cycles by Zander/Philharmonia, Tilson Thomas/San Fran & Gergiev/London, plus some individual ones from Slatkin/St. Louis (and 6-7 more cycles on CD), plus a fair amount of Tchaikovsky, though some of it is upscaled early Telarc recordings. The HR stuff is split between SACD and downloads from HDTracks.

John:

I have the Zander/Philharmonia incomplete cycle (I'm unfortunately underwhelmed by his 2 from Linn after all these years of waiting). Love his 3. Love all the lectures, especially for the 1. It's going to be interesting to see if he can complete the cycle--still has the 7 and mighty 8.

What do you think of MTT? I can't say I'm blown away by him as a Mahler interpreter so I haven't felt compelled to get anything more than his "Das Klagende Lied" with the SFSO.

Amongst those 6-7 complete cycles (!) on CD, who do you like overall and why? Who does kick ass 1, 2 and 3? The "go tos" for me for those are Zander/Philharmonia and Dudamel/LA Phil for the 1, Fischer/Budapest Festival for the 2 (Channel Classics SACD) and then back to Zander/Philharmonia.

Have you dipped into Blu-ray concerts? I did the entire Abbado/Lucerne; bought the 1 and 3. Am going to buy the Chailly/Gewandhaus 2 and already have the 8. Very interesting that we have a new release of the 8 with Chailly taking over Lucerne in the wake of Abbado's death.

And finally, I want another "Das Lied" in addition to the Bruno Walter/NY Phil I have (on CD). I'd like good liners with a translation in the booklet. Any recommendations? Does not have to be high rez. I've had my eye on these:

Boulez/Vienna: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000079BG...=UTF8&colid=D6J89BAF6ZNB&coliid=IBT7HV3L2MLU4

Reiner/Chicago: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QEIMA...UTF8&colid=D6J89BAF6ZNB&coliid=I35S8I6NCE5ZLP

Finally, I'm curious about what you're referring to when you say "upscaled Telarc recordings." Are you referring to downloads or SACDs? Because if the latter, I'm not aware of any uprezzing. A lot of their recordings from the late 70s were of higher resolution (thanks to the Stockham digital recorder) than the CD was capable of presenting. So when SACD came around as you likely know, Telarc went back and reissued all of those early digital recordings on SACD that they had released on CD but only now with all the theretofore unheard air and resolution (their infamous 1978 recording of the "1812" is an example; have that on SACD and their one DVD-A release).

 

[Mike Frezon]

New Mike: More later but a quick LOL in response to your saying "Clive Owen" re that "Messiah" conductor as opposed to Colin Davis.

. Yup. Posted too late and too tired !

 

[JohnRice]

Paul, no Blu-Rays for me yet. I just haven't delved into them. Once I started getting HDTracks downloads, I like the idea of being able to play them however I want, with whatever DAC I want. The DC-1 is such an excellent DAC, especially fore the price, I hesitate to buy anything I can't use it for.

Regarding the early Telarc recordings, even though the original CDs didn't keep the full resolution, they're only 16/50, so they are still significantly upscaled to SACD. They sound as good as they can, and they include some of my all-time favorites, plus I loaded up on them, CHEAP, about 5-6 years ago when Telarc more or less vanished and they were being dumped. I was ordering them ten at a time, often for $4-6 each shipped. I just counted them and I have 60 Telarc SACDs and probably paid about $5 average on each one.

I need to point out that I'm just not a fan of historic recordings. I understand the idea, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and someone like Mahler in particular can be done many different "right" ways. So, I don't have any Walter, Szell, Ormandy, etc. I need a great recording, so my classical stuff doesn't generally date back before the mid '70s and that is mostly limited to Solti, since he did so many great recordings in the '70s.

As far as Mahler, my gut tells me my favorite #1 is Zander. I seem to recall liking the Slatkin Telarc, but it's been a long time since I've listened to it. #2 might be a tie between MTT and the Telarc Slatkin. Kathleen Battle single handedly elevates that one, though the Mezzo knocks it back down a bit. I agree with the Zander 2nd on Linn. Mostly, I recall something being just weird about the recording, but I don't recall what it was. I think something with the soloists was wrong. It was a technical thing.

Otherwise, #4, I think I like the Solti/Kiri CD. #5, again, I think I like the Solti, but I don't think I've listened to my HR versions in a while. I just don't recall. #6, I'm kind of fond the the HR Gergiev, but I recall liking the Zander as well. Mahler is just too massive to explore those recordings in too much depth or too often. As far as Das Lied, I admit I'm not nearly as fond of the lyric stuff as the more conventional Symphonies, so I don't have a suggestion.

 

[Paul.S]

Paul:

It IS an historic performance! Clive Owen and the London Symphony in 1966. It's really very, very good. Should you get it if you already have a favorite? Only you can answer that! I had a few...even SACD...and this one, I think, is the best. Fidelity is exceptional. That original recording must've been very good indeed.

As for Wagner and Mahler...none of it has ever clicked for me. Tried 'em. Didn't like 'em. Of course I haven't listened to it all...but I've got enough Mozart and Bach to keep me happy for the rest of my life. As for Tchaikovsky, I pretty much only know the high-profile works.

Before Frank? A must have. If you know Sinatra at the Sands, this disc is that...just without Frank. Basie and his band at the absolute top of their game. It's really an exciting disc. These were performances by Basie's band that were played (and thankfully recorded) that they played before Frank took the stage. I have the DVD-A of Sinatra at the Sands. This is fabulous stuff.

I got my BA of Can't Slow Down today. Worth every penny. When I mentioned "various" releases, the one I purchased is supposed to be a UK version of the release (I'm sure it's probably identical to the US version). And I have read about some high-rez digital downloads available. Online reviews are really positive.

Thanks, Mike. I will keep CLIVE OWEN's "Messiah" on my list.

So it would seem you are more into Classical and Baroque than Romantic?

Def eventually getting Basie's Before Frank. It's like I can't even "bother" with even cheap mainstream Hollywood BDs these years. They'll always be used copies on Amazon. High rez music packaged media and Twilight Time BDs are the priority because they can get scarce or pricey over time.

All of these UMG BD-As are European releases. It's a function of the complicated ownership of Universal over the past couple of decades. Briefly, after Edgar Bronfman sold Universal to French water utility Vivendi, NBC owner General Electric wanted to combine Universal with the network to create what became NBCUniversal (now owned by Comcast). Vivendi Universal Entertainment sold the theme parks, the television properties and the movie studio to GE . . . but not Universal Music Group. UMG is still owned by the French. That's why it's good to check Amazon UK when quantities dwindle and prices ebb up on these BD-As on US Amazon.

I don't know that I agree with the ebullience of that Steve Hoffman reviewer regarding the SQ of Can't Slow Down. I dig it but it's hardly the "Best SQ Ever!"

 

[Paul.S]

Paul, no Blu-Rays for me yet. I just haven't delved into them. Once I started getting HDTracks downloads, I like the idea of being able to play them however I want, with whatever DAC I want. The DC-1 is such an excellent DAC, especially fore the price, I hesitate to buy anything I can't use it for.

Regarding the early Telarc recordings, even though the original CDs didn't keep the full resolution, they're only 16/50, so they are still significantly upscaled to SACD. They sound as good as they can, and they include some of my all-time favorites, plus I loaded up on them, CHEAP, about 5-6 years ago when Telarc more or less vanished and they were being dumped. I was ordering them ten at a time, often for $4-6 each shipped. I just counted them and I have 60 Telarc SACDs and probably paid about $5 average on each one.

I need to point out that I'm just not a fan of historic recordings. I understand the idea, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and someone like Mahler in particular can be done many different "right" ways. So, I don't have any Walter, Szell, Ormandy, etc. I need a great recording, so my classical stuff doesn't generally date back before the mid '70s and that is mostly limited to Solti, since he did so many great recordings in the '70s.

As far as Mahler, my gut tells me my favorite #1 is Zander. I seem to recall liking the Slatkin Telarc, but it's been a long time since I've listened to it. #2 might be a tie between MTT and the Telarc Slatkin. Kathleen Battle single handedly elevates that one, though the Mezzo knocks it back down a bit. I agree with the Zander 2nd on Linn. Mostly, I recall something being just weird about the recording, but I don't recall what it was. I think something with the soloists was wrong. It was a technical thing.

Otherwise, #4, I think I like the Solti/Kiri CD. #5, again, I think I like the Solti, but I don't think I've listened to my HR versions in a while. I just don't recall. #6, I'm kind of fond the the HR Gergiev, but I recall liking the Zander as well. Mahler is just too massive to explore those recordings in too much depth or too often. As far as Das Lied, I admit I'm not nearly as fond of the lyric stuff as the more conventional Symphonies, so I don't have a suggestion.

One of the reasons I like the concert BDs for Mahler is because there is so much going on in his work that the well-directed ones (for instance, by Paul Smaczny) get excellent coverage of the orchestra by someone who clearly knows the score. Many times I have ended up seeing something that I was theretofore not hearing:

• A little bit of filigree being played by the winds that I can see the player(s) execute which I had not heard before but now am more aware of from having seen it played in a quick cut "iso" shot;
• the bass drum being partly draped with a towel in the first movement of the Abbado/Lucerne 3 and the percussionist going between playing on the towel versus directly on the head for a different sound;
• the brass in that same performance's final movement using clothes pins to put towels in front of their bells to achieve a more muted sound for certain passages;
• the oboes and clarinets sometimes raising up and pointing their bells directly towards the audience (apparently this is more directions Gustav wrote in the score!).

There's no "upscaling" on those Telarc SACDs, at least in the stricter sense of the word. Those early recordings were 50kHz, DOWNrezzed in their presentation on CD but then finally presented at their ORIGINAL resolution when mastered to DSD for release on SA-CD. I don't know if we have the same understanding but are using the terminology differently. But upsampling/upscaling typically refers to the use of some algorithm to create faux resolution that does not exist in the original capture. That's not the case with those Telarc SACDs.

Forgive me if this comes off as pedantic, since if you have 60 Telarc SACDs it's likely that some of them date back to before they were doing original DSD recordings and those are the ones that have this verbiage in the liners:

Telarc's first digital recordings utilized the Soundstream recording system which is based on a sampling rate of 50kHz compared to a standard Compact Disc which has a sampling rate of 44.1kHz. The higher rate of the Soundstream system offers an extended frequency response up to 25kHz and increased to detail. To produce the original Compact Disc the Soundstream signal had to be converted from 50kHz to 44.1kHz, a process that inherently causes a loss of quality not only by lowering the frequency response but also by the complex mathematical process needed to drive 44.1kHz from 50kHz.

Until recently no digital system has had the capability to capture the full quality the Soundstream process had to offer. The advent of the Direct Stream Digital DSD technology and its frequency response of 100kHz allows the Soundstream tapes to be remastered to DSD presenting to the listener the true sound of the recording. Not only is the original bandwidth preserved, the sonic defects produced by the awkward sample rate conversion are eliminated as well. The end result is the sound of the recording team intended even though it had to wait for more than 15 years!

Interesting re not so much being into historic recordings. I try to familiarize myself with a work, then maybe watch both an "old school" (think Karajan) performance and a bright shiny new recording, then buy a maybe high rez version on SA-CD unless there's some vaunted recording that's only available on CD.

I hope you'll check out the Dudamel 1. It's on Amazon Instant. What a thrill machine! Interesting re Slatkin's 2: I got it because of Battle but had issues with the perf: A couple of the orchestra's biggest attacks were not tightly together enough for me. Yes on the Zander 6. It's precisely because it's so massive and dense that I go back often and deeply.

We haven't mentioned Lenny! The man who really popularized Mahler in the 60s. He did one cycle with NY in the 60s (I have the 1 on SA-CD). Then I have his entire mixed orchestra (Vienna, LSO and Israel Phil) box set video cycle that Unitel recorded in the 70s when he did the whole cycle again. Then a 7 from him on DG CD with the NY Phil. I picked up a Kubelik 1 along the way, partly because the CD features Dietrich Fischer-Diskau singing the "Songs Of A Wayfarer." You should really check out some of the lieder, especially with Thomas Hampson. The Kindertotenlieder are heart-breaking and oh so Mahler.

 

[JohnRice]

Paul,

I don't know why this is such an issue for you. Maybe I should have said "upsampling", but the bitrate from those original Telarc recordings IS increased on SACD, plain and simple. Regardless of the terminology you want to use, the bit rate is significantly higher than the original recording, and those extra bits have to be calculated somehow. If you break the formats down to just bits per second, CDDA at 16/44.1 works out to 705,600 bits per second. Soundstream at 16/50 is 800,000 bits per second. SACD (specifically 2 channel DSD 64 that's on SACD) is 2,822,400 bits per second. If you do the math, you'll find DSD64 is exactly 4x the bitrate of CDDA, which is no coincidence. It's intended to easily convert to CDDA.

That blurb from Telarc that you copied has zero bearing on that. All that's talking about is that with SACD it was no longer necessary to downscale the recording from 16/50 to 16/44.1, which created all kinds of problems not just because of the loss of bits, but also due to the odd change of sampling frequency. Plus, the technology at the time to do that wasn't nearly as good as it is now. With SACD having over three times the bitrate of Soundstream it's not an issue. But... they... ARE... upscaled or upsampled. Choose the term you want. My original point is that they aren't as good as if they had been recorded originally with in DSD as later Telarc recordings were, but they are as good as they can be considering the source material. No DAC is designed to play back original Soundstream except original Soundstream equipment and maybe some exotic, studio or mastering ones. It has to be converted to something else (In this case, DSD64) for regular people to play it.

 

[Mike Frezon]

I finally got my BA of 1612 Italian Vespers by I Faglionini last night (my wife thinks I'm nuts...so what's new?).

UPS delivered it to someone else's house by mistake (apparently) because they said they left it on my porch...but there was nothing there. Amazon wanted me to canvass all my neighbors (plus wait another day because apparently "it's common for carriers to say something's been delivered even when they really plan to deliver it the next day."

Imagine someone receiving that package...opening it...and wondering what the heck the product was! A Blu-ray disc...of music? Not...a movie? Whaaaaaat? This is nuts! And what kind of music is it exactly???

Anyway, it's here now. I'll give it a listen soon.

 

[Paul.S]

John:

I will continue to read around (including re-reading your comments again later), enhance my 30-year understanding and be the first to return to this thread if I am missing some nuances. It's like a Pacific Microsonics HDCD technology (a way of getting purported 20-bit performance from the 16-bit CD medium) is being confused for the simple presentation of the true, original capture of high rez data.

If I shoot a movie in 480p resolution and then put it on a VHS tape, the lower rez of that consumer media means the movie is downrezzed. If I then have that movie mastered to DVD, it's not getting "upscaled" or "upsampled." There's enough rez in that consumer media for me to enjoy the original rez capture as it was captured. Upsampling or upscaling is what is going on when I then watch said DVD via my OPPO BD player: For the sake of trying to achieve better picture quality on my HDTV, the data on the disc is processed in away to interpolate more information than was in my movie to begin with.

This is another matter but I don't understand the applicability of your last two sentences. There are two classes of recordings at issue here: One is the Soundstream stuff that was originally presented at lower rez on CD and then later ORIGINAL rez on SACD. Then Telarc eventually switched to original DSD recordings and of course released those on SACD.

My understanding of the Soundstream system is that is was simply a 50kHz PCM-based digital recorder. This is where I think we're experiencing a disconnect: It is not my understanding that Soundstream recordings have to be "converted to something else" such as DSD64 "for regular people to play it." My understanding is that there were a lot of Soundstream recordings that were released on SA-CD (ironically, the Slatkin M2 is one of them) before Telarc ever started RECORDING in DSD (which I don't think happened until around 2000??). It was simply Jack Renner and Bob Woods' choice not a technical imperative that those Soundstream recordings were transferred to DSD. They could have just as easily been mastered to high rez PCM and presented that way (like the uncompressed, lossless audio on early Disney BD titles) or mastered to, say, MLP.

I just grabbed my Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati Rachmaninoff Symphony No. 2 CD, released in 2001. It reminded me of something which arguably makes things even more complicated in terms of understanding the Telarc landscape. Here's an example of a DSD recording that was not released on SA-CD but rather only on CD. Maybe you can give me some Telarc catalog numbers so I can look them up, see how they are branded (Telarc variously added "Surround," "20," or "DSD" to their spine logos depending upon what phase of their onward march through the technologies they were at) and perhaps better understand what is getting lost in translation here between us.

 

[JohnRice]

I own an online business, and I don't recall ever having a parcel say it was delivered when it hadn't been yet, so I don't know what Amazon is talking about. I think they just made it up. It isn't exactly uncommon for a delivery to be made to the wrong address, though. Especially in neighborhoods like mine where there are parallel streets with houses at the same addresses. Then you hope an honest neighbor gives it back to the carrier or brings it to you. About 95% of the time that's what they do. Of course, these days you have porch pirates sometimes.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Probably mis-delivered to someone who couldn't be bothered to see the package to its rightful destination. Plus, my wife works at home...AND we have a new dog! Pretty sure no one ever came to the door.

However, the thought of someone stealing the package off my porch and finding themselves with a Blu-ray of some 17th century religious tunes is what I would prefer to believe.

I think they just made it up.

Without a doubt. The guy asked me repeatedly, "are you SURE you checked on your porch??"

 

[Paul.S]

LOL re "porch pirates."

My BD of Hidden Figures (a Mother's Day gift; I'll eventually get the 4k) from Amazon was scanned "delivered" the week before last. Never got it in my box and the carrier of course has no recollection. And I order a lot of stuff (90 orders in the last six months!) and run an Amazon store. I've had a customer say something was not received despite tracking saying otherwise. So it does happen.

I just filed an A-to-z claim when the merchant declined to refund and got my money back via Amazon. They're very good that way in my experience.

 

[JohnRice]

One is the Soundstream stuff that was originally presented at lower rez on CD and then later ORIGINAL rez on SACD

That's where your misunderstanding is coming from. The original Telarc recordings on SACD are NOT in unaltered Soundstream on SACD, they just haven't been downsampled. They have been converted (and upsample to DSD64) but their resolution remains at the original 16/50, because you really can't increase resolution. What Telarc is really saying is that there are no longer lost bits, like there were on CD. SACD stereo is DSD64, not Soundstream. You can't actually gain resolution by upscaling, but Telarc is just stating that you are no longer losing resolution. Again, stereo on these early Telarc SACDs is in DSD64, period. There's also an allowance for lossless compression with SACD, but that's immaterial. Maybe someone else can explain it a different way. Did I somehow give the impression this is a bad thing? Because it isn't. All I'm stating is that the old recordings aren't truly full DSD64 sound quality, but they are as good as they can be. I love some of those recordings (Shaw/Carmina Burana in particular) and I'm glad to have them in as good a form as they can be.

 

[JohnRice]

I just want to add that with a lifetime (definitely over 30 years worth) of experience with photography, going from film to digital, I actually have a pretty deep understanding of the dynamics and differences between resolution and bits, or pixels with photography. Digital audio involves similar concepts. It's a complex thing, and there's a tendency to interchange largely perceptual things like resolution with digital ones like bits and pixels. The latter has an influence on the former, but it's just not that simple.

 

[KevinJ]

The Beatles Sgt Pepper Blu ray in the Sgt Pepper deluxe boxed set.