Hi Everyone, I am a HT newbie and this is my first posting. After reading forums for 2 weeks I spent this last weekend looking for my first system. On Saturday I started with 2 budgets in mind ($2,000 or $4,000). By Sunday I was at $4,000 and not looking back since sales tax and connections are going to throw me past $4000. The reality is I would have been quite happy at $2,000 but I just can't help myself when it comes to upgrading. I committed myself to the Denon 3802 before even seeing it. I figured that would make my decision process that much easier. Unfortunately trying to make an apples to apples comparison is practically impossible. Either I could not use the Denon 3802 each time or the rooms for comparison purposes were quite different with one setup in the middle of a wide open store. Having said that I am considering 2 different systems with 2 different receivers. The first system includes a Definitive speaker setup with internal subs. This allows me to compromise with the wife over speaker size vs no external sub. I would love any opinions you might have on the 2 different systems including pricing. In addition, I would appreciate opinions on internal subs since system 1 has 2-12 inch subs in the front towers and 1 sub in the center channel. System 1 includes: Denon 3802 Def Tech BP 2002 TL (black finish) Def Tech CLR 2500 (black finish) Def Tech BP1X2 The price I am shooting for on this system would be $3800 (MSRP $4400) The store is running a system price of $3,000 for a BP 2004TL, CLR 2300, BP1x2, & Denon 3802 (sounded very nice). The sales person has already agreed to sub in the BP 2002TL for an extra $600 and I would ask him to sub in the CLR 2000 for an extra $200. I am still going back and forth on upgrading the rears (BP1X2). How important are the rears to upgrade. Now For system 2: Marantz SR8200 B&W 603 B&W LR 600 B&W Sub 600 (I think?)I know it priced at $600 Paradigm Dipoles This system priced at $4,000 per the rep. I did not do a good job in pulling model number info for the paradigm or sub do to exhaustion and the sales rep style. The sales person did not seem concerned about using a non B&W rear speaker. The sales person also seem fixated on not changing the speakers and selling me on upgrading the receiver. Ultimately he switched in a SR 8200 for a SR 7200 and the dynamics improved dramatically. The SR8200 sells for $1400 vs $700 for the SR7200. Given my lack of experience in HT and the apples to oranges comparison I am ready to make my purchase based on a good deal. As far as sound quality goes I don't see where I can really go wrong with the systems I am looking at in this price range. How do you resolve room time issues when stores are busy? Do most of you just leave and come back at non peak times? I am really not interested in prolonging my decision and want to begin the HT experience now. By the way, my room is 16X20 with normal height ceiling and one wall is open to a hall entrance, kitchen counter, and dining room. Thanks in advance for your comments.