REL Stentor....what is an SVS equal? (1 Viewer)

[Lynn Little]

Here's a good 2 part solution.

1. Email SVS regarding which of their subs will work best for you. Order it.

2. Arrange for your Rel dealer to let you demo a well broken in Stentor at the same time you'll have the SVS solution in your home.

Don't get in a hurry. I repeat, don't get in a hurry. You'll have 45 days with the SV solution. Return the sub(s) that don't work out. The most you'll be out is time and/or shipping. You'll KNOW you have the best solution to you bass needs. Your ears, not our opinions, will give you the peace of mind you're looking for.

 

[Cees Alons]

I own a REL (Strata) for more than 7 years now - and it's still a fantastic experience each time again. (BTW I didn't consider a SVS because I'm living far abroad, although I just learned that someone had one shipped to the Netherlands recently).

REL is absolutely one of the best subs in the market and it's very unfortunate that it's not widely known on the American continent. In short, it blends superbly with your sound, is beautiful for both musical and HT use and unobtrusive, it's sound as well as it's physical presence.

When I demonstrate my HT, people often ask "do you have a sub as well?" (it's positioned behind them ), and they only notice it when I switch it off. Or, if they are connaisseurs, they simply look around frantically to find the sub.

Now it's extereamly debatable if your mains even go below 25hz in the first place,and that goes to that REL as well.

Wrong.
When you use that hookup method, the sub is in parallel, so ALL bass goes to the sub. It uses it's own low-pass to determine what to amplify and output. But it compensates for the weaker frequencies in the mains!

I suppose an important difference with SVS may be the price, and perhaps the sheer power in the "higher" models.

Unfortunately I have no personal experience with the SVS subs (may change ), but from my experience with REL and many HiFi rooms of friends and retailers I regularly visit, I can only say: the RELs are among the best, the most musical and effective subs made. Or perhaps even simply the best. No real drawbacks.

Cees

 

[epos]

The disadvantages of the REL would be a lack of clean output and extension and high cost relative to SVS and similar options.

where did this statement came from? long before HT when there isnt any real subwoofer, audiophile use a pair of speakers to enjoy music, most still do without any sub now, when did they ever complaint theres distortion? its either the speakers produce the signal or they dont. as a matter of fact, audiophile hate sub because they may add unwanted noise, with high x-over its even worst. when main and sub overlap and produce same frequency, the sound may cancell each other or bump may happen. if connecting the main thru sub with its x-over, it would be the worst! theres x-over added unnecassary between the amp and speaker, can the quality of the x-over be trusted? can it feed the signal without adding its own sound? the signal now travel longer and thru a electronic device, one can be sure it would never be as the same, thats what i call lack of clean output!

this is a HT forum so i wont surprise the member here is more into loud and low bass without thinking if its musical. REL is touted the first true sub without adding its own coloration which is why they always recommend high level in // to the main. its also the first sub brand earned praises from the audiophile. the low x-over is there for good reason, to integrate with the main seemingly.

no offence to anyone, correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Doug BW]

I guess my hypothesis was correct:
SVS for sheer muscle or output.
REL for good music & blending with high-end speakers.

With all respect, I don't think you can say whether your hypothesis is correct or not... at least not if you base your judgement on reading this thread. I just re-read all the posts on this thread and it certainly doesn't appear that any of the contributors have heard both an SVS and a Rel.

The main thing you should take from this thread is the advice that's been given several times: give both subs a long, fair audition in your home, then decide. (And if you don't mind, come back here and share your observations.)

I don't think it serves you well to try and establish for yourself in advance which sub ought to sound better for music or HT. In fact, you should do your best to remind yourself that at this point in time, you have no idea which sub is going to sound better when you compare. You might as well go into the comparison with the "openest" mind possible.

Though I'm among the guilty on this thread, owning an SVS and having never heard a Rel, I can tell you that the notion that the SVS is not good with music and/or unable to blend well with high-end speakers is not a notion that's widely held among SVS owners. Music on my SVS sounds quite wonderful to me (and, as has been reported ad nauseum on this and other forums and in reviews, they sound wonderful to many people). Of course, it's possible that I (and others) would find a Rel to sound even more wonderful.

So that begs the question: How does a well-set-up SVS fair against a well-set-up Rel? I can't tell you that. There doesn't seem to be anything in either sub's specs or published objective measurements that will reliably tell you which one sounds better (which is a matter of taste anyhow) or which sounds more accurate (which can be difficult to define). You'll just have to listen to both.

 

[Mark Leitch]

Doug, I have actually heard both but have *not* had an SVS in my system (and I think you need to have something in your system to have an informed opinion; like you, I find the constant offering of opinions based on conventional wisdom and little else a bit frustrating here).

The bottom line is they are both excellent subs, but they are targeted at very different markets. They each can do things the other cannot, and I really do think the best approach is to get both (actually, I would get the REL and the Adire Dustin pointed out ;-). I also think a lot comes down to what equipment Bill is using. In my REL system, my speakers have no crossovers in the chain and there is a complete analog path for a lot of my system. For HT, the Lexicon is in the middle and quite frankly, if I used the Lex for music (I find it incredibly lacking) an SVS would likely work out very well.

I think everyone has very different ideals about what a "musical" system is. I look at Dustin's system (nice website Dustin) and it is clear his preferences are really different than mine... and I think if he looked at my system he would feel the same (though I do want his sub for my HT ;-)

Good luck with your decision Bill... I think whatever you buy you will make it work... and after awhile you just need to follow your instincts, lay down the cash, and enjoy (though I think you need a better demo of what 'stats can do ;-)

M.

 

[Michael R Price]

Here's the problem... if you want to consider the accuracy of the subs... a system with higher clean output capability (less distortion) and better extension will reproduce the signal more accurately. If you want (and I agree, most HT people don't), you can set up such a subwoofer to blend in below the mains and only reproduce what they cannot (REL type connections)... or you can set it up the way I would prefer, which means using a good quality active crossover to highpass your mains. Especially if the mains are vented.

Bill, since it has a single 10" driver and no measurements to back its performance up, I just can't recommend the REL for a room as large as yours. The biggest benefit of a sub would be improving your system's dynamic capability and bass extension, and to realize those benefits a stronger subwoofer would be needed. If you are still looking for ultimate musical performance there are other options, especially DIY/custom built (namely, IB or sealed Tumult).

 

[Doug BW]

Mark, you made some good points, and I'd like to expand on one of them.

You said: "...but they are targeted at very different markets." I agree that SVS markets their subs more heavily to the HT community. However, it's less clear what that means in terms of how they engineer their subs.

I think a lot of times when people use a dismissive tone in referring to "theater subs", they are referring to subs designed to be "adequate" (or worse) for home theater. Such a sub would be one that could merely play loud, and maybe deep. It's unlikely that a sub with that sort of limited design goal would sound good for music.

On the other hand, consider what it would mean to design an "excellent" home theater sub. An "excellent" home theater sub would need to do an "excellent" job of reproducing everything on a movie's soundtrack (under 100 hz or so). That includes the music.

So the question becomes, how can you design a sub that does an excellent job with all bass in a movie's soundtrack, without it also doing an excellent job with pure music as a natural consequence? I can't see how.

What elements of a sub's performance would the designer of an excellent home theater sub ignore, that the designer of a "musical" sub would not? I can't think of any.

Thus I don't believe that having home theater as a target market in any way precludes SVS from successfully competing (based on sound quality) against manufacturers that focus on music only. If SVS manufactures a truly excellent HT sub (and of course people will debate whether they have), then by definition it is a great music sub as well.

 

[Scott Oliver]

Bill hate to add to the confusion.

Personally of whats been offered here I think you would be smart to go with the REL. Although if it were me with that size room I would be looking for the REL to augment the mains and then have an additional LFE sub, which you could perhaps do an SVS or whatever for movies.

But anyhow another speaker manufacturer that makes subs that integrate with the mains similar to REL is Audio Physics of Germany. They have the very expensive Minos sub and a smaller Luna.

Also another little known company is VBTbass that has some similar conncetion options, although I don't think any of their models are powerful enough for your room.

BTW, I have a Bag End Infrasub-18 which I like a lot.

 

[Mark Leitch]

What elements of a sub's performance would the designer of an excellent home theater sub ignore, that the designer of a "musical" sub would not? I can't think of any.

Doug... there are many parameters you may consider when designing a sub with "general" agreement on what choices will make for a more musical sub or not. Also, I think the method of connection can be key (part of the point I was trying to make with my post). I think the crossover method and the sub are a unit... and there are definite choices to be made (I even debate attempting an LR dipole pair...).

I really do not think I have been critical of SVS, or have said they are not musical. I have said in certain situations, the REL does offer an advantage (and their cabinets really are nice ;-)

Happy listening...

 

[TimTurtino]

Totally off on a tangent-- while I agree that a lot of the stuff offered in response to questions is basically of the form "I hear X is good", that's still a heck of a lot better for the people asking those questions than complete silence. I can see where it might get wearing for someone who'd been around longer, but trust me that the newbies and the less-informed are very appreciative of any input, even if it's not the most-informed opinion available.

And now for something that's not completely different:

Message board logic:

A) Should I do option 1, 2, or 3?

B,C,D,G) You should do X! Or possibly Z! It's not our money, after all!

H) You have to give us the complete ancestry of your family in order for us to possibly have enough info to know that. But still, X is great.

E) I've heard 2 is nice.

F, I, J) X sucks! You should try Y! And Y will cook breakfast in bed for you!

A) So, what you're all saying is that I should do 1 like I was planning to do all along, right?


Me

 

[Bill Law]

Thanks guys and yes this is frustrating as hell trying to get a straight answer or one from someone who has experienced both....or I would have stopped posting long ago. The REL is not readily available. Tweeter has only 2 REL Stadium III's in their entire system (one step below the Stentor III I'm considering). So it doesn't look good for borrowing one to compare.

One clarification: The actual theater/music seating area is 17'6 x 26'6 x 8'6 without a rear wall where the 26'6 extends to 42'+ before hitting a a wall (long side of L-shape)......
SOOOO...do I only consider the seating area which would reduce my volume significantly to 3,941cu.ft.? and then not need so much sub? i.e. What is considered big volume for one sub?
There seem to be two distinct camps of thought on this:
1. HT & pro SVS crowd that don't see the need for a crossover below 40hz and want 1960's muscle-car power. Which lead me to believe they might be boomy.
and
2. Audiophile & pro REL crowd that don't expect the house to fall down when sub plays and want lower crossovers (since their high-end main spkrs probably go lower).

The lesson so far: Sumiko is doing a lousy job or just gave up on marketing their larger REL subs and SVS did an excellent job.
or maybe REL owners just don't post on internet forums.

This sucks but I will probably order the Stentor sight unseen (& unheard) and see. If it lacks I might try the new B4 which is also sight unseen (& unheard).

I REALLY appreciate the advice everyone has provided.
I will keep ya'll "posted" on the outcome.

 

[Mark Leitch]

Bill... there is someone selling a REL Storm on audiogon who just upgraded to the Stentor... why not email him and get his thoughts on it (I find audiogoners very willing to share opinions on equipment they have owned... the good and the bad).

M.

 

[Michael R Price]

Bill, just use the 45 day SVS return policy, and see if you can borrow the REL from a dealer. It's still not clear just how much power you need - if the REL has enough output and sounds better, by all means keep it. However I have a feeling it won't (little chance getting to reference level). You could actually probably keep both.

The entire volume of the room and all continuous space (such as connected rooms without closed doors) needs to be considered.

Most boominess would be a function of room effects as long as the subwoofer is not seriously underdamped (and the SVS seem to be relatively low Q so that is not a problem). Regardless of your subwoofer choice room effects can be mostly compensated for using a $120 equalizer. In a room of that size I would not expect much boominess to be "added" to an accurate nearfield response, especially if you play with the placement a bit.

There is no need to purchase the SVS sight unseen, just ask the forum if anyone in your area has one (or similar Adire/DIY sub) and most people would be happy to let you come over and listen. If you do visit, be sure to play around with the settings because I imagine most HT systems of forum members will not be set to your listening preferences. I believe there's a web site organized by a member here to help arrange such a thing, www.audioenvy.com.

 

[EarlR]

Bill,
If your budget is $5,000 and your main concern is musical quality I would recommend you check out the Aerial SW12 sub. It has both high and low pass as well as a built in EQ, that works very well. I have a pair of these and have not listened to anything that in my opinion is better including the REL.

Earl

 

[Dustin B]

Wrong.
When you use that hookup method, the sub is in parallel, so ALL bass goes to the sub. It uses it's own low-pass to determine what to amplify and output. But it compensates for the weaker frequencies in the mains!

I don't see how this proves your point Cees. He wasn't talking about the crossover at all, but the low end extension capabilities of either the Mahlers or the Rel. At higher output levels I don't think the Mahlers will be of much use below 40hz, and the Rel won't be of much use below 30hz (the Strata maybe even higher as it isn't ported). A 10" driver in a smaller bass reflex enclosure (I suspect tuned around 30hz) can only do so much. If someone will measure the diameter and length of the port on a Stentor I'll give a good guess as to it's tuning point.

I could extrapolate from the picture of the Staduim/box dimensions given and it worked out to ~30hz.

 

[Greg Bright]

Bill,
I'm late getting into this conversation, but I have to ask: What music do you listen to? If it's acoustic, you will want the tightness. If it's electric, you'll want the depth. If it's MAHLER, you're half way there. All you need is the SUB.

I find it impossible to believe any VA Mahler owner would not be a huge fan of Gustav the Great. The Finales of his "Resurrection" or "Symphony of a Thousand" will make your room, your sub(s), and your mind ring with joyous sound! If you haven't yet, find out why your speakers were so named.

Greg

 

[Yee-Ming]

I have heard an REL Q201, and I own an SVS 25-31PCi.

the REL was a friend's, which I heard in his system when still considering what sub to get. it's certainly "clean", for want of a better word. I must caution that even today I consider myself a tin-eared noob, at that time it was even worse.

while the Q201 was very nice, it didn't quite have the gut-thumping oomph that I was looking for. plus, when SVS had its summer sale, the price of the 25-31, even shipped all the way to Singapore, was cheaper than an REL Q150, never mind a Q201.

so I went with the SVS, sight unseen, ears unheard. I have never regretted it. it's got the thump you want on an explosion when watching movies, yet when playing music it unobtrusively lifts the bass giving music more feel -- I have towers rated +/-3dB down to 48Hz, but I never use the much-vaunted "source direct" of my Marantz receiver because the bass just seems "missing" or anemic when run that way, bypassing the sub.

most would agree that SVS has more output, more extension. it "goes to 11", while the REL does not and stops at 10. on the flip side, many argue that the REL is "more musical". with respect, in my admittedly very limited experience I don't think the SVS is a slouch in music. music's bass is still nice and tight on an SVS, without any boom.

the bottom line was literally the bottom line -- the SVS was much cheaper, for more thump. but I'll readily concede the REL's WAF is much, much better -- a 1ft cube, compared to a 3ft tall cylinder 1.5 ft wide.

(the prices won't mean much, even after exchange conversions, in view of different market conditions, but to give you an idea, the SVS was US$605 shipped, about S$1,060, an REL Q150 was about $1,400 (US$800), not sure what a Q201 would've cost but certainly more.)

 

[Lewis Besze]

I don't see how this proves your point Cees. He wasn't talking about the crossover at all, but the low end extension capabilities of either the Mahlers or the Rel. At higher output levels I don't think the Mahlers will be of much use below 40hz, and the Rel won't be of much use below 30hz (the Strata maybe even higher as it isn't ported). A 10" driver in a smaller bass reflex enclosure (I suspect tuned around 30hz) can only do so much.

Yup, saved me a lot of typing there.

 

[Bill Law]

Gustav? Who's that?
Yes the new Michael Tillson Thomas' Mahler SACD is incredible on the Vienna's.

Meanwhile, I am learning "sub speak".
Apparently for $5k I should also check out the Aerial SW12, Revel or others.
The SVS B4 is about as mysterious.
I feel like I need to beg someone to sell me a $5k sub :frowning:
No one stocks them, Tweeter said 1/2 down to order a REL, no one sells Aerial within 3hrs....
This is not a good sign for the audiophile crowd - a dying breed?
At least Audiogon forums have many postings about REL's.
They are rated higher by the audiophile crowd than the HT (SVS) crowd.

 

[Mike Matheson]

At least Audiogon forums have many postings about REL's. They are rated higher by the audiophile crowd than the HT (SVS) crowd.

No argument that that's the feedback over there. The generalized idea though wouldn't be that disimilar to saying "Hondas are well-made, efficient little cars, but for serious enthusiasts? Come on. . ."--which doesn't take into account the NSX.

I'm not sure how a lot of the ideas floating around about the lower-end SVS subs would apply to the B4-Plus. Seems like a bit of a different breed (though still with prodigious output), at least according to BrianKR's review here.

Bill--maybe you could post a question about who in your area might have some of these subs in their systems, and possibly work out some type of a shootout through owners rather than through dealers.

The best of luck on your continuing search,

Mike