REL Stentor....what is an SVS equal? (1 Viewer)

[Lynn Little]

You know guys, this is starting to sound just a bit like one of those contests, the kind where little boys see who can urinate the farthest...

 

[Bill Law]

OK, i give up.
The room is actully even larger. The dimensions I gave were only the long part of an L-shaped room.
I don't have an option of enclosing it since the house is on the National Register of Historic Places.
So what do I need to get decent bass?
The SVS Dual SS package? WAF will ruin that tho (those look like hell compared to the rosewood on the viennas).
Thanks for the help guys.
PS I dont have any bladder issues

 

[Dustin B]

Bill, both the SS and Adire Sadhara can be ordered to match your Viennas.

From SVS SS page:

or a variety of real wood veneers

And the pic on Adire's site (really bad one at the moment) is of a rosewood one.

A pair of either won't get you Reference levels in that room, but will provide some very articulate and should provide some very reasonable bass levels.

 

[Bill Law]

Do you work for Adire or SVS, Dustin?
This stuff is really frustrating.
REL's website & some responses just seem like everyone is trying to talk over my head. I dont claim to know all this stuff. The sub is THE last piece of my puzzle....and Im anxious since the infocus 7200 & Firehawk arrived!
I like good sound & spent a good bit on it so its important that I match the level of sound quality I have & that it blend well. Rel's strong point?
My mains go down to 22Hz-25000Hz so a low crossover point makes since to me.
I ASSUMED incorrectly these internet brands were just boomy thumpers for a cruiser crowd. Still learning.
The only one I can take home locally is a Velo HGS-18.
So i do need advice....and yes Im skeptical of REL since Sumiko only sells Rel...thus their recommendation.
Thanks for your patience!

 

[Lewis Besze]

The Velo would be a good choice, a pair would be a good start.

You know guys, this is starting to sound just a bit like one of those contests, the kind where little boys see who can urinate the farthest...

Really!
Till your remark this was a good thread,with informations and opinions abroad[on the subject],which is clearly missing from your last one!

 

[Zack_R]

Your basement sounds like it's very similar to my basement with regards to shape and size. I have one SVS Ultra driven by the Samson S1000 (500 watts) and I have plenty of bass. I sit 14 feet from the sub, calibrated reference is -21 on my 4ES and -10 on the sub out and it plays the THX Thunder intro flawlessly with the receiver set to -21 ( The S1000 flickers red briefly but no audible clipping or driver bottoming that I can hear from 14 feet). This is way to loud for me to sit through a whole movie. I generally watch at 12-15db below ref. I have the sub corner loaded and properly phased to get as much of the room working in my favor as possible. I think this is critical in a large room because you have no amp or subwoofer headroom to waste and the more you can get the room working for you, the better the sound will be. I am rat shack corrrected to be +/- 2db from 20-100 hz from 14' and am perfectly flat if I take my readings 21-22 feet away (The middle of the long part of my basement).

If you truly have speakers that are flat to 22 hz then I would not even bother with the sub. 22 hz would be more like 18-19 in the room so why bother?

Before I went any further I would purchase a Radio Shack (or better) audio meter and see just how flat your mains are in your basement. You'll need some individual test tones to get an accurate measurement of what is going on in your room. Once you have that information, I think searching for the right sub or subs in your listening environment will become much easier.

 

[Dustin B]

Neither. I used Adire's products to build my own sub. And respect SVS's design and business philosophy. It's just IMHO Rel is significantly overpriced for what you get and doesn't represent some miracle of integration (especially after this thread got me straightened out on the Rel's connectivity) that can't be achieved with most other good quality subs.

You may find these articles useful:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...537#post739537

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-9-2002.html

I'm definately no expert on crossovers, but most people don't even have my rudimentary understanding so I added this to the primer:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...602#post523602


The Sadhara driver also has a new motor topology called XBL^2. If you want to learn more about it look here:

http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/xbl2_motors.htm

Also keep in mind that even though the Mahlers are rated to 22hz, we don't know at what output level. During peaks (>100dB) in movie sound tracks or big symphony/orchestra pieces I bet that flat frequency response would creep up pretty close to 40hz. Loud low bass requires the movement of a lot of air and a few smaller excursion 10" drivers can't move that kind of air. Even the big powered tower speakers (the ones with 500W amps and 15" drivers built in) don't do great below 30hz at high levels.

 

[Mike Matheson]

Bill,

If you have a $5K budget, have you looked at the new SVS B4-Plus sub?

Two recent threads:

Coming, to a theater near you.

SVS B4-Plus more than measures up

Prodigious output; box shape; nice finish.

I'm drooling anyway. . .

 

[Frank Carter]

As soon as I saw your budget, I was thinking B4 Plus as well.

 

[Mark Leitch]

Dustin... with all due respect... your statements on the RELs crossover are incorrect. Part of why they are favoured by people with planars is planars tend to exhibit specific bass properties that can be hard to integrate a sub with. Most crude solutions tend to sound pretty bad.

The primary virtue of the REL is to run your mains full range and integrate in specific steps. I have run many crossover approaches (whether from plate amps or dedicated xovers, and note the upper end Brystons and Marchands cost about the same as a lower end REL ST anyway) and while I wish there was a cheaper solution, it simply works.

Personally, my preference is music. I am extremely disciminating of my system and all approaches to replace the REL tend to be more expensive. I am building my own DIY sub for home theater. My personal philosophy (contrary to most these days... but it works for me) is a system cannot do both HT and 2 channel well. Some (most?) would disagree... and that is fine by me...

Thanks for the link on the Adire sub... it looks awesome.

M.

 

[Michael R Price]

Bill, to me one of the most significant benefits of a subwoofer is that it can increase the quality of sound coming from your mains, by reducing the bass load on them. While your speakers are capable of reproducing deep bass, they are by no means capable of reproducing high amounts of it with low distortion. In fact, the stress put on your speakers and amplifiers by bass causes intermodulation distortions higher up in the audio range. If you cross over the subwoofer so low as to not interfere with the mains, or leave the mains without any highpass filter at all, you are making a compromise in undistorted output capability and sound quality at higher levels.

You can use an active crossover with any subwoofer, REL or otherwise. If it's built into your processor or receiver that's great, but you can buy one for a nominal cost.

Additionally it's very likely a good subwoofer would produce better quality bass over the 20-80Hz range than your mains... first because the active crossover (no passive components between amplifier and driver) and long-throw drivers could produce the signal more accurately, and second because setting your system to produce all its bass from one place would be somewhat less prone to room interactions that would mess up the frequency response.

So, I think there is a bit of a complicated decision here: firstly, what subwoofer to get; and secondly, how to set it up. I would personally try to steer you towards a product from one of the internet companies (Adire for example) and to set it up with an active crossover in the 40-80Hz range, but the REL and its passive setup would work fine and could offer advantages in musical quality... you just have to understand its disadvantages.

By the way there, is a good reason Dustin is so enthusiastic about these subwoofers. I am also familiar with the sound of a Tempest...

 

[Dustin B]

Electrostatic/planar dipole speakers are very different from other speakers, I'm aware of this. But I don't think Rel is the optimum solution to bass for electrostatic speakers. If I settled on electrostatic speakers for mains I'd be actively crossing them over in the 40-80hz range (depending on their size) with a DIY dipole or infinite baffle sub.

In otherwords I don't think the solution to integration with electrostatic speakers is a very low crossover with the electrostatic speakers run full range. I think the solution is building a sub that can keep up with electrostatic speakers and relieve them of bass duty.

If you are running electrostatic speakers and are considering DIY, if you haven't, look into dipole designs. The Adire Tumult and DPL12 would be the drivers I'd look at for this type of sub. How many will be required will depend on how loud you want to go.

But as always this is my opinion and feel free to disagree with me. Opposing view points are what make these forums great. Although it does make decision making easier when we all agree :p)

 

[Bill Law]

Dustin, Where did "electrostatic" come from?
Vienna's are anything but...very warm...not shrill & bright like electrostatics. Silkdome tweeters instead.
Vienna

Michael, What are REL's DISadvantages?
& why an Internet company?

There SHOULD be measurements to compare like xSPL@[email protected] noooooooo.

Thanks...my goal is to have the sub in-hand in 3-weeks.
Meanwhile, which one to get:frowning:

Thank ya'll for the education, so far!

 

[Mike Matheson]

Hi again Bill,

why an Internet company?

I like the idea of an internet company because of the value typically associated with them (i.e., less markup vs. retail operations). SVS essentially offers a demo plan with their "45 day money back guarantee" (less shipping--and the B4 Plus is big and heavy). Heck--you could maybe get both the B4 Plus and one of the big RELs (assuming you have a local dealer with a good refund policy) and do a comparison. Have some folks over to help out (like MOVING the subs around, measuring, etc.).

To me the downsides of an internet company are typically:

- difficulty of demoing the product (hassle and costs of potential return)

- do they know what service is?

- am I wasting my time/effort? maybe it's junk. . .

SVS definitely knows what service is. And I've not heard anyone call any of their models junk (well, maybe one young bloated-bass loving gentleman). In terms of return hassle/costs, the two downsides might be getting the sub packed back into its stuffing (difficult possibly because of weight?) and the return shipping costs.

So how about that idea of a comparison between a REL or two and the B4 Plus? Maybe give SVS a call--I wonder if they'd extend any kind of special offer if you hosted a gathering to compare these models (REL vs. SVS questions come up a lot). I, for one, would certainly love to hear the results of such a head-to-head.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Edward J M]

Bill:

Let's keep it simple.

1) You have a HUGE room - 6300 ft3.

2) You want the highest quality bass you can find under $5 large.

3) You want beautiful, furniture-grade exterior that matches your Vienna's.

SOLUTION:

1) SVS B4 Plus in a stunning furniture grade finish that exactly matches your Vienna's. $2,499 + shipping.

2) A QSC RMX2450 amp at 2,400 watts into 4 ohms bridged mono mode. $599 + shipping from Parts Express.

At this point you're probably at $3,300 delivered to the door including interconnects and wire.

As Brian KR's review elsewhere in this forum demonstrated, this combination will absolutely bury your other considerations in ALL objective measurable performance parameters.

As for subjective opinions, Brian seems like a very tough guy to please - he's been through a litany of very well regarded subwoofers in his quest for perfect bass. He finally found it in the B4 Plus.

To quote Peter Aczel of the Audio Critic regarding the sound of subwoofers:

"How does it sound? Exactly as it measures, as I have said many times before. A subwoofer is a relatively simple device that presents no mysteries and hides no subtleties. It has a frequency response, a dynamic limit, and a distortion range — that’s it. Wave launch, dispersion, power response, etc. — so important in the evaluation of full-range speakers — do not enter the picture at all."

It is certainly not a given that you will need a parametric EQ - so why buy one up front? Your room acoustics might be perfect for bass - mine certainly are. The only way to tell is to run a FR sweep and plot the results. If you end up needing a BFD or a Rane, then fine - by all means get one and fine tune as needed.

But for the basic package at $3,300 delivered, you cannot go wrong here. The B4 Plus will more than likely exceed your wildest expectations in terms of cabinet finish, sound quality, power, low distortion, and deep extension.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Bill Law]

OK, after this post I will stop "beating a dead horse".
Thanks AGAIN!
IS the B4 superior to the Dual SS Package?
Yes a box has better WAF.
Finally sheetrock is finished & being painted & I only ran two RG6 cables w/RCA adapters and two 2-conductor, 12-guage speaker wires to the sub location. I also have a 110volt power outlet there.
Can the SVS packages work with these wires only?
It's too late to run more now without considerable labor expense.

 

[Michael R Price]

Hi Bill,

The disadvantages of the REL would be a lack of clean output and extension and high cost relative to SVS and similar options.

By Internet company I meant basically Adire or SVS. I think of those two as the leaders in the subwoofer market.

Tom V would be happy to provide you with measurments on all his subs and a few of his products have been reviewed/measured by Tom Nousaine (in Sensible Sound) and by Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity. I think it would be hard to find output/distortion measurements of the RELs.

The Stereophile review measured the Mahler's lower -3db limit at around 40Hz (at 1W input). Additionally, the review commented that they could reach peaks of about 100db, which seems low for a system using drivers of that caliber. Given this, and the fact that they use paralleled midranges and woofers to increase sensitivity and power handling, I think they would have a significant increase in dynamic capability using an active subwoofer crossed over between 50-80Hz.

The B4-Plus appears to have about 4-6db more clean output than a pair of SS subs. As for its musicality, I imagine they have a very similar sound (truly good quality especially if correctly set up), and their lower frequency response can be somewhat adjusted by plugging ports to change the tuning.

I'm pretty sure the connections you have are fine for almost any subwoofer.

BTW, those Mahlers seem like pretty amazing speakers from that review... I would be interested in hearing what you think about this system when it's finished!

 

[Edward J M]

The B4-Plus appears to have about 4-6db more clean output than a pair of SS subs.

I would say that is a very conservative estimate.

The SS uses the same TC Sounds TV-12 driver as the Ultra, in a 16-46 sized enclosure. Tom V has already stated that B4 Plus is equal to 4 Ultras in terms of output. I would say the same would hold true for the SS, perhaps even to a slightly greater extent considering it uses the larger 16-46 enclosure.

It would take at least 4 SS to equal a B4 Plus in output. The B4 Plus is a perfect candidate for this size room. To the SS' credit, it probably has a lower stock tune point that the B4 Plus, and achieving similar extension with the B4 Plus would probably require plugging a port, which might soak up a dB or two in max output. Regardless, it will still have SPL to spare even in that room.

As for your cables question - go to the horses mouth on that one - email Tom V.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Raymond D'amato]

Bill :
I am using 2 rel strata 111's . with my B&W n804's.
i am 95 % music . after having many,many subs in my system
I have found nothing better. Their is just somthing it
does from the lower midrange down that is just wonderful.
BTW i have not heard the svs line but my impression is from
what i read on this forum they are excellent cost ratio performance for home theatre.

 

[Bill Law]

I guess my hypothesis was correct:
SVS for sheer muscle or output.
REL for good music & blending with high-end speakers.
Neither does both well?