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Matrix in DTS (1 Viewer)

Dave Moritz

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Again I have to question the validity of these comparisons. If you haven't heard them both in the same listening environment and through the same equipment (preferably immediately after one another), how can your comparisons be valid? Such comparisons must be based on memory and influenced by preference more than anything.
How do you figure that the only way to get a valid comparison is to hear it off the same print and the same enviroment. You cant have a valid comparison unless the print has been played a low number of times. Since both DD and SDDS are suseptible to damage and wear. Most chain theater all use the same QVC amplifiers and JBL speaker set up. So the only differences between them would be room size and speaker configuration. And sence the THX program is ment to equilize the theaters so there is very little difference from theater to theater. So it would be valid to see the same movie in different locations. To say that it isnt would be to question that valitity of the THX program. All three formats use different algorithm’s so they will not all sound the same. Also a valid compaison can be done in the home between DD and DTS as the same speakers, amps, processor and dvd is used. Then it ouly becomes a mater of what sounds better! Granted that doing a compaison on a low cost budget system may not be the best platform. Middle of the road systems should be good enough for the purposes of evaluation. As the average consumer does not normally own anything about middle of the road. In order to recreate multi-channel audio it requires a certain amount of bits or information. Dolby seems to think that they can shave it even further and still acheive maximum audio resolution. DTS i feel recreates a richer sound with more fine detail and more depth in center channel and a better seperation of channels. Recreating a more realistic and ballanced sound. Dolby has its place but I do not think that it should be a replacement nor should it be the only surround format for the movies we all watch. We where given a choice and some people prefere Dolby Digital and some people prefere DTS. For certain directors that are unable to distiguish the difference to come along and take our choice away. It is not acceptable nor is it right.

Back To The Future was to be offered in DTS but then the desion to exclude it was made. Speilburg has been one of the biggest supporters of DTS and he has released a few of his movies in DTS. So I guess the question is why did he not push for the DTS release of Indiana Jones? Why did he not push for the DTS release of Back To The Future? The number of extras on the BTTF was not good enough to warrent the exclussion of DTS. The extras did not go into enough detail to talk about how they did all the different effects and scense in the trilogy. An extra disc could have been added for this purpose and would not have made a major difference in cost. Disc's do not cost that much to manfacture in mass quanities.

The only difference I can see is in the bottom line! If you have just one format on the disc then you are not paying the competitor to use there format. Thus you keep that much more for yourself. And it does not become an issue of which one is better but what company is cheaper to offer on the most popular format (dvd) ever released.

The subject of who is better DD or DTS is very subjective as we all hear sound differently. I and many others would agree for us the DTS is the dominant and supperior format. And there are also others that would disagree and say that Dolby is the supperior format. Then there are some that litterly can not tell the difference or dont care. My main objective was to see how many others agreed that The Matrix should get DTS treatment. Weather it was a DD/DTS release or a seperate DTS only release?

IMHO I dont think the video market would be any better if Dolby was able to cornet the market. And be the only digital format available. If Dolby Digital was the only format avaible I would seriously consider not buying movies anymore. And would just rent them and watch them on dish or cable. The sound would make it not worth the money to go out a invest money on dvd's or the next format that may or may not replace dvd. There have been days when I will stop a movie before it is half way through due to the lack luster DD track. And yes that may be alittle extreme and picky but I have my own standards just like everyone else. Audio has come along way since the days of analog cinima came along and evolved into the multi-channel digital power house that it is today. Dolby has been qround the block many times but that does not make them the best! I have listened to DD on inexspensive systems and high end systems and DD does not impress me. IMHO i feel there are many improvements to be made to DD.
 

Cliff Olson

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But you should, because without making sure that only ONE variable is changed (the codec), you have NO rational basis for saying that DTS is inherently superior.
First of all, please don't put words in my mouth :D Where in my post did I put that DTS is "inherently superior"? I simply stated that in all the movies that I own, it sounds better, if offered with both surround soundtracks. Second, you guys are missing the *point*.

Again, I don't care what process, or mix, or whatever DTS uses to get their finished product. As a consumer, I only care about what sounds better. You can worry about why, and I'll enjoy listening to it, while you do the research :)

But, for arguments' sake, I'll humor you. Please list some titles in DD that used superior "mixes" over DTS, and I will buy it, and compare it to the DTS version. In other words, which DD soundtrack sounds better than DTS using two different mixes? It seems any time someone on this forum lists that a DTS soundtrack sounds better than the DD version, all the DD supporters argue that "it's a different mix"! Ok, if that's the case, where are the DD mixes that sound better than the DTS mixes used? They must exist, since DD was the accepted standard long before DTS. It seems like comparing apples and oranges, but this has to work both ways if there is no perceivable difference in audio quality between the two, right?

One more question. Who does the mixing, the studio? I thought DTS did the mixing for their soundtracks, but obviously I was wrong.
 

Cliff Olson

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That approach is perfectly fine. But it hardly puts you in a position to declare one format or another to be "better sounding".
Michael, that gives me every reason in the world to say one format sounds better than another, "to me". It's called *personal* experience. How else do you know? From experience, right?
 

Dave Moritz

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The majority of installers,salespeople and end users that have up to date systems that I have spoken with prefer DTS. Most of the reviews I have read prefere the DTS tracks the majority of the time. My system has a very dynamic sound especially in the main channel. My center channel and rear channel will be brought up to steam soon.

Dolby does do the encoding for the disc's maybe not directly. But when movies are encoded they use the algorythm that Dolby designed so it can be decoded by Dolbys decoder. You cant say that Dolby just makes the decoder so they have no effect on how it sounds. Dolby has much to do on how it sounds! The Dolby encoder sets the compression ratio and how the bits are encoded to be played back later. The same thing is true for DTS.

I would agree that if there are any DD tracks that are better lets here what they are. Star Wars prequals, The Haunting, Saving Private Ryan, U-571, The Matrix, Air Force One and Terminator 2 are not very good DD mixes nor is Lord Of The Rings - Fellowship Of The Rings. Most of what I hear on this forum is how DTS is not better but not many people offer a large number of titles to support there possition.
 

RobertR

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So the only differences between them would be room size and speaker configuration. And sence the THX program is ment to equilize the theaters so there is very little difference from theater to theater.
Did you personally verify that the speakers used were exactly the same? Did you personally see the level settings and room analysis for different theaters to see that the sound levels and response curves were exactly the same? Did you personally verify that there was no difference between the mixes? No? Then you can make no assumptions about all other variables being unchanged.
 

RexW

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"Back To The Future was to be offered in DTS but then the desion to exclude it was made. Speilburg has been one of the biggest supporters of DTS and he has released a few of his movies in DTS. So I guess the question is why did he not push for the DTS release of Indiana Jones? Why did he not push for the DTS release of Back To The Future? The number of extras on the BTTF was not good enough to warrent the exclussion of DTS. The extras did not go into enough detail to talk about how they did all the different effects and scense in the trilogy. An extra disc could have been added for this purpose and would not have made a major difference in cost. Disc's do not cost that much to manfacture in mass quanities.

The only difference I can see is in the bottom line! If you have just one format on the disc then you are not paying the competitor to use there format. Thus you keep that much more for yourself. And it does not become an issue of which one is better but what company is cheaper to offer on the most popular format (dvd) ever released."

And of course different regions have to come into play as I can enjoy my DTS version of Back to the Future here in R2 Japan.
Ah the joys of not being limited....
 

Cliff Olson

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No it doesn't. Michael's point is that all you can say is that the mix sounds better, NOT the format.
If you read my earlier post again, and quote it IN TEXT, as Michael did not, you would read:

"To me, DTS is just better sounding, on every movie I've been able to compare."

You guys mentioned this mix thing for LOTR, not me. Michael's comment is relevant only to LOTR, not all the other DVDs in my collection (140+ titles).
 

RobertR

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You guys mentioned this mix thing for LOTR, not me. Michael's comment is relevant only to LOTR
No, Michael's comment is relevant to other DVDs, because the mix is also different on them. Again, you are comparing mixes, not codecs.
 

Dan Rudolph

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The number of extras on the BTTF was not good enough to warrent the exclussion of DTS.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but the official word is was drop DTS or drop about 20 min of extras and they decided the extras were more important.
 

Peter Apruzzese

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Most chain theater all use the same QVC amplifiers and JBL speaker set up. So the only differences between them would be room size and speaker configuration. And sence the THX program is ment to equilize the theaters so there is very little difference from theater to theater. So it would be valid to see the same movie in different locations. To say that it isnt would be to question that valitity of the THX program.
That was my point. THX-certified or not, *every* auditorium will sound different, regardless of whether or not the same equipment is used for them. I also should have noted this is my original post: if you see the film in the same auditorium it can sound differnt depending on how many people are inside. A showing with 20 people will sound *different* than a showing with 500 people. All those bodies change the sound absorption characteristics (not to mention the background noise level!). You may not want to hear that information, but you have to trust me as I've been doing this for nearly 25 years. Unless it was the same auditorium with the same print with a similar crowd size and at *precisely* matched sound levels, your original comparison is still invalid. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

That said, you should go and enjoy films however you like. :)
 

Dharmesh C

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"Back To The Future was to be offered in DTS but then the desion to exclude it was made. Speilburg has been one of the biggest supporters of DTS and he has released a few of his movies in DTS. So I guess the question is why did he not push for the DTS release of Indiana Jones? Why did he not push for the DTS release of Back To The Future? The number of extras on the BTTF was not good enough to warrent the exclussion of DTS. The extras did not go into enough detail to talk about how they did all the different effects and scense in the trilogy. An extra disc could have been added for this purpose and would not have made a major difference in cost. Disc's do not cost that much to manfacture in mass quanities.
I have the R2 release of BTTF and I only listen to the DTS 'cos I don't have to mess with the volume. There's no major difference between DD and DTS on this release, but I prefer DTS 'cos it's a little louder - and that doesn't mean it's better before someone misquotes me :D
 

Jeff Kleist

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The majority of installers,salespeople and end users that have up to date systems that I have spoken with prefer DTS. Most of the reviews I have read prefere the DTS tracks the majority of the time.
And let me tell you something, the majority of reviews are also DTS snobs and proud of it :)

I mean honestly, how often did Ron listen to the DD track if there was DTS? Just about never when he was reviewing.

I will switch back and forth on key scenes, both loud obnoxious ones and quiet dialogue centered ones. The only place, in a track where all mixes are the same, that differences really come out is on concerts, where the DTS tends to have a slightly crisper high end
 

Sean*O

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How about finding a DVD audio disc with a DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 track on it as well?

All three tracks should use the same master as a source (in theory), and then one could compare the mathematically lossless DVD audio track to both the DD & the DTS compression jobs.

Anyone try this? I think the Blue Man Group DVD audio contains both DD and DTS in addition to the 24/96 DVD audio track. There may be others.
 

GregK

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How about finding a DVD audio disc with a DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 track on it as well?
Just keep in mind two things if you compare DTS and DD 5.1 tracks on a DVD-A disc:

1) The Dolby Digital dial norm setting may still be set at -27 instead of at -31 (defeated) so there can still be level differences. It's also been reported some DTS encoders give a very slight (within a db) boost to the overall output level when compared to the master. Studies have shown that level differences within one decibel can affect subjective listening comparisons.

2) DTS audio on DVD-A is typically full bitrate DTS (1509kb/s) with a 3:1 compression ratio. Most DVD movies with DTS use the 754kb/s DTS bitrate which has roughly a 6:1 compression ratio.
 

Dave Moritz

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Hey Vince Maskeeper

I dont know why QVC keeps sticking in my head by you are completly right, LMAO

:b :b :laugh: :laugh: :b :b
 

Lewis Besze

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1) The Dolby Digital dial norm setting may still be set at -27 instead of at -31 (defeated) so there can still be level differences. It's also been reported some DTS encoders give a very slight (within a db) boost to the overall output level when compared to the master. Studies have shown that level differences within one decibel can affect subjective listening comparisons.
Don't forget the 10db boost on the DD/DTS tracks which is part of their decoding,and can affect the bass perception if it wasn't accounted for prior to encoding.The BMG disc exhibit this quiet audibly,so I wouldn't conclude on any codec based on this exercise.Back where we started.;)
 

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