King of Jazz (1 Viewer)

[TJPC]

Please more about the movie and less Jazz Archaeology.

 

[bigshot]

I'm talking about Paul Whiteman's place in American music. This film is all about Paul Whiteman and his dance band music you know. I actually love this film and the music it represents. I'm happy to discuss it. In fact, that is why I'm here and that's exactly what I'm doing.

 

[Tony Bensley]

I first became acquainted with Paul Whiteman via an off air VHS recording of STRIKE UP THE BAND (1940) in the early '80s. Even though by 1940, Paul Whiteman's popularity would have been supplanted by the likes of Artie Shaw and Glen Miller, he was evidently still a pretty big name in the late '30s - early '40s Swing era!

The same year that KING OF JAZZ (1930) was released, a Paul Whiteman reference is directed toward Oliver Hardy (They did bear at least a passing physical resemblance!) in the Laurel And Hardy short BELOW ZERO, in which the boys play struggling street musicians.

Bix Beiderbecke's appearance* in KING OF JAZZ is also noteworthy, partly in that he died the same year (At just 23** years of age!) it was released, and is most likely his only appearance in Color footage of any sort!

CHEERS!

* Bix Beiderbecke was to appear in the KING OF JAZZ (1930), but had to cancel due to illness that eventually claimed his life within less than 2 years of this film's release!

** Some previous sources listed Bix Beiderbecke's age as 23 at the time of his death. More recent sources indicate Bix was 28 at the time of his death in 1931.

 

[Brent Reid]

...Bix Beiderbecke's appearance in KING OF JAZZ is also noteworthy, partly in that he died the same year (At just 23 years of age!) it was released, and is most likely his only appearance in Color footage of any sort!

A slight, respectful correction, Tony: Bix Beiderbecke was actually 28, not 23, when he died. He happens to be well within my not inconsiderable musical "comfort zone"!

 

[bigshot]

He also isn't in King of Jazz unfortunately.

 

[RichMurphy]

Perhaps the confusion arose from this tidbit in the Internet Movie Database, "Bix Beiderbecke was meant to appear in the film and journeyed to California with the rest of Paul Whiteman and Orchestra in June 1929, during their first trip to Los Angeles. By the time the band returned to Hollywood to start shooting, however, Beiderbecke had become ill and was unable to travel."

 

[Bert Greene]

I remember seeing Venuti and Lang. Do we see Trumbauer?

Haven't viewed the film in over twenty years and can't remember. Maybe he was too busy making his own records by that time? I still love playing my old 78rpm's of "Alabammy Snow" and "Shivery Stomp" on my old phonograph from time to time. I knew Bix was out of the picture by the time the film started rolling. Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to getting this Blu-ray! This is really, really great news.

 

[Brian Kidd]

I notice this hasn't been posted here yet. It's a clip from the restored version. The debate in the YouTube comments (I know, "Abandon hope...") is over the fact that the song is "Rhapsody in Blue" (not "Blue Skies" as my addled brain typed this morning) and is decidedly green. A couple of folks who seem to be knowledgeable about such matters say that there was a way for 2-strip prints to be made with extra passes for the green dye that did a decent job of approximating blue and that it was likely used for the original prints of King of Jazz. Forgive my inadequate description, as I'm certainly no expert. We do have film experts here, though, who might be able to shine some light on the subject.

Verdant color notwithstanding, the image quality is marvelous, even with YouTube's heavy compression. I can't wait to see the Blu-ray.

 

[bigshot]

I'm not sure if Trumbauer is in King of Jazz. He might be, just not with a close up.

 

[Tony Bensley]

A slight, respectful correction, Tony: Bix Beiderbecke was actually 28, not 23, when he died. He happens to be well within my not inconsiderable musical "comfort zone"!

I attribute my cock up on this due in part, to an old Rolling Stone Rock & Roll Biography listing Bix's birth year as 1907, although I believe at some point I did see it corrected, but then forgot about it!

He also isn't in King of Jazz unfortunately.

I guess the combination of not having seen KING OF JAZZ in many years, and the numerous references to Bix Biederbecke having supposed to be in the Film, did lead to my erroneously "crediting" Bix with an appearance!

CHEERS!

 

[Tony Bensley]

* Bix Beiderbecke was to appear in the KING OF JAZZ (1930), but had to cancel due to illness that eventually claimed his life within less than 2 years of this film's release!

** Some previous sources listed Bix Beiderbecke's age as 23 at the time of his death. More recent sources indicate Bix was 28 at the time of his death in 1931.

A slight, respectful correction, Tony: Bix Beiderbecke was actually 28, not 23, when he died. He happens to be well within my not inconsiderable musical "comfort zone"!

Apparently, I also got the year of Bix's death wrong, as according to Wikipedia, it was in 1931, not 1930!

 

[Will Krupp]

The debate in the YouTube comments (I know, "Abandon hope...") is over the fact that the song is "Blue Skies" and is decidedly green. A couple of folks who seem to be knowledgeable about such matters say that there was a way for 2-strip prints to be made with extra passes for the green dye that did a decent job of approximating blue and that it was likely used for the original prints of King of Jazz.

Just a slight correction, the song is actually Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" (not Irving Berlin's "Blue Skies") and I have never heard that more green passes can produce blue (to my mind it would have simply produced an oversaturated green record) so I'm afraid that sounds apocryphal. The joke has always been that it was more of a Rhapsody in "turqoise" in KING OF JAZZ.

EDIT: I see that the commenter in question is claiming that Technicolor (in "certain" circumstances) went back over the film with blue dye. I'm afraid that sounds like wishful thinking on his part as I have been studying the process for years and have never heard such a thing before (and he's the only one saying it.....over and over.)

I will say that this clip looks "too green" to my eyes as the original dyes (to my knowledge) were more of a blue/green and less a pure green . I'll be curious to see how it looks on the actual blu-ray.

 

[Brian Kidd]

Just a slight correction, the song is actually Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" (not Irving Berlin's "Blue Skies")

Ugh, my rapidly ageing brain. It was early and I was running on too few hours of sleep. I have no idea why I typed Blue Skies. Going to edit it.

Here's the quote from a Mr. Stephen Wallin in the YouTube comments. I can't immediately turn up any credentials for him on Google, but that is far from extensive research on my part.

Looks nice, but it is a bit odd in far too green. Whilst Technicolor cameras were insensitive to blue, they could print the green response in blue ink, which did not affect skin tone. Also an extra print run after the green tone could be done to force blue in particular densities. These were deep trade secrets at the time. I wonder if the details have been forgotten nowadays, as the sequences was reported in reviews as in blue tones at the time, not green. Whoppee in particular had blue used, by print in methods, and some scenes were shot in red/blue same as Multicolor used. Technicolor had many tricks to make the simple 2 colour process look good on screen. As many as four ink runs could be done on a scene to get it to show a better colour palette.

 

[bigshot]

I think he is thinking of Cinecolor, which had a bluer tone that could be fudged to be a dull green.

 

[Will Krupp]

Here's the quote from a Mr. Stephen Wallin in the YouTube comments. I can't immediately turn up any credentials for him on Google, but that is far from extensive research on my part.

The problem with the internet is that too many people speak with authority when they haven't any. Those comments are then picked up and repeated. I read a number of Mr. Wallin's comments and he seems to imply he's privy to deeply hidden "trade secrets" that no one else has ever heard of and that he fears are now lost (yet he somehow has them.) He provides no backup or documentation for any of this, and all he gives us by way of a credential is that he claims to have once worked for the Rank Organisation in his youth. He's the ONLY person sharing these revisionist theories and they don't make all that much sense.

Also from the same page:

Technicolor had tricks themselves, and simply used to run the matrix for the green response through a third run, with blue ink on it. This covered the green, does not matter in this scene, left the faces correct, but the blue was increased.

I'm sorry, but is utter nonsense if you understand the theory of subtractive color photography/printing. Adding blue dye OVER existing green dye will not make it more blue, it will make it "Rhapsody in Mud" as the blue (which blocks red and green) and the green (which blocks blue and red) will cancel each other out. This is why subtractive dye transfer printing used Yellow (red+green blocks blue) Cyan (blue+green blocks red) and Magenta (blue+red blocks green) when they moved to three color printing as the YCM model uses colors with single rather than double blockers and allows you to recreate almost every shade of every color using only those three dyes.

 

[Jack Theakston]

Bullroar. I handled two nitrate prints of KING OF JAZZ in the past and there ain't no blue dye on them whatsoever. The only difference between the camera neg material in the new restoration and the original prints are that the neutrals tended to look more sepia because of the way the dyes mixed on the film.

 

[Casey62]

I just found out about this release yesterday and am overjoyed. Criterion's presentation promises to be first class. I thought it would take longer for this to happen; at least not until the film finished its revival run. I guess all of those engagements have been met.

 

[Casey62]

I need to have my memory refreshed as to why the print used for the MCA VHS tape had a more turquoise coloring than what I'm seeing in this restoration.

 

[Tony Bensley]

I need to have my memory refreshed as to why the print used for the MCA VHS tape had a more turquoise coloring than what I'm seeing in this restoration.

Because actual restoration has been done since the golden age of VHS.

CHEERS!

 

[Casey62]

I'm assuming the Blu-ray will finally be giving us the color audiences saw in 1930.