Batwoman - season 1 (The CW)

Matt Hough

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OK, another whole Alice episode, part backstory and part today tale. While I admit it's intriguing to see this backstory, I am SO over Alice. I'm not sure I'm going to continue watching.
 

DaveHof3

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I'm an easy audience for superhero stuff, but I bailed on this show halfway through the third episode. Between this and "Gotham" and "Pennyworth," I'm just burned out on almost-Batman shows. Either give us a real one or stop trying to make supporting characters carry a series.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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I'm continuing to really enjoy this. Another fun, sufficiently theatrical episodic villain. The Executioner is another obscure Batman villain that appeared in a different form on "Gotham" -- albeit with a completely different real identity and a completely different motivation.

If "Supergirl" had done this story, it would have hammered the audience over the head with its message about the flaws in the criminal justice system. This episode did a nice job complicating that message, with Luke Fox feeling a great deal of gratitude toward the corrupt assistant DA.

This episode referenced two of Batman's most famous villains, the Joker and Penguin. Interesting, the little bits of backstory we get for both of them align with the Tim Burton movies: The Arrowverse Earth-1 Joker's real identity was apparently Jack Napier, while both the Burton Oswald Cobblepot and the "Gotham" Oswald Cobblepot ran for mayor of Gotham.

Alice is really starting to feel the pull of her real family, the more she comes into contact with them. I find that interesting, that the real battle is within her.
 

Matt Hough

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Yes, this was a better, more entertaining episode overall. I keep teetering on the cusp of staying with the series or leaving it, but this episode pushed me back on board for another couple of weeks at least.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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The show opted to go with the version of the character that's existed since 1981 rather than the version of the character that's existed since 2011. Sometimes I think people go out of their way to find things to be offended about.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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This was a pretty pivotal episode, killing off one series regular and changing the dynamics among the remaining series regulars for the foreseeable future.

While Kate and Jacob say they're done with Alice after what she did to Catherine, I highly doubt that's really the case. It's not just that she's Beth, it's all of the guilt they feel for not saving her as a child. No matter how awful Alice is, I don't believe they're ever going to be able to forgive her.

On the other hand, it does draw a pretty stark line between Kate and Mary. Mary is never going to be able to forgive the woman who murdered her mother. Intellectually, she knows the role her mother played in turning Beth into Alice. But she doesn't have any of the emotional attachment than Kate and Jacob do to Beth, and the circumstances of Catherine's death were incredibly traumatic.

I know Matt can't stand Alice, but I think Rachel Skarsten has been phenomenal in the role, especially the moments where Beth the wounded child rises to the surface. When Jacob confessed his remorse for not checking the DNA of the bone fragments himself, and explained why he didn't, I think Alice's "Thank you" was genuine. As much as she says she wants to punish Kate and Jacob, I think she's actually far more desperate to be back in their lives. Especially because they're not playing the roles of the selfish, horrible people she built them up to be in her head. Alice is the victim of nearly two decades of Stockholm Syndrome, and now as her plan unfolds reality is starting to do some deprogramming.

It's also interesting that "Crisis on Infinite Earths" arrives right as Batwoman's family situation has been completely shattered. Other than the stinger at the end (which is apparently being used at the end of all five shows), "Batwoman" has done no preparation for "Crisis". I don't even think any of the characters on the series are aware that a crisis is coming.
 

Matt Hough

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I know Matt can't stand Alice, but I think Rachel Skarsten has been phenomenal in the role, especially the moments where Beth the wounded child rises to the surface. When Jacob confessed his remorse for not checking the DNA of the bone fragments himself, and explained why he didn't, I think Alice's "Thank you" was genuine.

Besides the fact that I'm just tired of seeing her every week as the central villain, the very thing you're admiring her for, Adam, I don't like: her genuine emotional response to being abandoned plays very erratically when she goes back to her sing-song, crazy-eyed Alice shtick. It all seems very "actory" and irritating to me.

But, I can also see the depths of drama that this murder establishes now among the various family members. Unquestionably it has given quite a bit of gravitas to an already serious show. But therein lies another problem for me: that sense of gloom and doom that drove me away from Gotham and Arrow in that there were never any real victories for the heroes; they were always playing catch-up to the villains and generally treading water or drowning in sorrow rather than having something to actually celebrate. The tone just becomes too oppressive to deal with week-by-week after awhile.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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That was a hell of a twist ending. The return episode of "Supergirl" also dealt with multiple versions of the same character ending up on Earth-Prime.

The question is: Is this Beth really from a different timeline where she never became Alice? Or is Mouse playing Alice in DEO custody so that the real Alice can play the role of the seemingly alternate reality Beth as part of some scheme to trick Kate?

Fun little crossover moment, with Batwoman's coming out cover story being in CatCo magazine and written by Kara Danvers. It shows the potential of having a shared universe, even when the actors themselves don't cross over.

I'm guessing we'll be seeing more of the hacker girl from Kate's prep school down the line. Luke is a good jack of all trades and "guy in the chair", but the Torres girl could be Batwoman's Felicity when it comes to the tougher hacker work.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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Interesting that both this show and "Supergirl" this week dealt with doppelgangers left over from the Earth-Prime merger during "Crisis", with a good version of a baddie on this show and a bad version of a good guy on "Supergirl".
 

NeilO

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That was a hell of a twist ending. The return episode of "Supergirl" also dealt with multiple versions of the same character ending up on Earth-Prime.

The question is: Is this Beth really from a different timeline where she never became Alice? Or is Mouse playing Alice in DEO custody so that the real Alice can play the role of the seemingly alternate reality Beth as part of some scheme to trick Kate?
Finally caught up. The end of the new Beth version storyline was a disappointment. First off, the "illness" from there being multiple versions completely contradicts all the multiple versions we saw in the Supergirl episodes. Next, having to get Beth away from the Batcave was a stupid move (and a "stupid plot" device). They could have easily distracted The Crows away from the Wayne Building many different ways. They were really that confident The Crows would find the Batcave and Beth there? One anonymous tip sends the Crows to The Wayne Building, why not try another tip? Then later with Beth's dead body there is nothing said about her hair being completely different from Alice's.

And I guess there was no cctv near Mouse's guarded hospital room?
 

Adam Lenhardt

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First off, the "illness" from there being multiple versions completely contradicts all the multiple versions we saw in the Supergirl episodes.
The only explanation I can think of is that, since the alternate universe Beth was walking around Earth-Prime for a few days before the "illness" started affecting her and Alice, perhaps it simply hadn't caught up yet with the alternate universe Winn Schott before he died and was digitized. The other doppelgangers were all Brainiacs, so it's possible that as technological beings they weren't affected the same way.

Then later with Beth's dead body there is nothing said about her hair being completely different from Alice's.
To be fair, unless you were part of "Crisis", the idea of dye job would be a more obvious answer than a doppelganger from another dimension.

And I guess there was no cctv near Mouse's guarded hospital room?
If there had been, they would have just seen him being escorted by a renowned plastic surgeon with admitting privileges at the hospital.
 

NeilO

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The only explanation I can think of is that, since the alternate universe Beth was walking around Earth-Prime for a few days before the "illness" started affecting her and Alice, perhaps it simply hadn't caught up yet with the alternate universe Winn Schott before he died and was digitized. The other doppelgangers were all Brainiacs, so it's possible that as technological beings they weren't affected the same way.
There were also the multiple versions of the bartender and some others in Supergirl - right after the aftermath. Of course, some of those might have been aliens, so perhaps not as affected. I thought the bartender was human.

To be fair, unless you were part of "Crisis", the idea of dye job would be a more obvious answer than a doppelganger from another dimension.
I still would have liked a line of dialogue saying that Alice dyed her hair back to its natural color or something. Also, there were some other physical differences now between Alice and Beth.

If there had been, they would have just seen him being escorted by a renowned plastic surgeon with admitting privileges at the hospital.
There was also the death of the guard somewhere there. I don't recall any mention about that or Mouse's disappearance by any law enforcement personnel. The only one to mention that was Alice, when he didn't show up at a rendezvous point.

Another point, why was neither Kate nor Mary around when Jacob was set free from prison? After talking with him a decent amount while he was in prison, he didn't contact either of them when he was released.
 

Sam Favate

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Catching up with this show, and I just can't. The last one I watched (Off With Her Head) is non-stop sadism. It's unwatchable.

What is it about the Batman mythology that calls for all this sadism? Gotham, a show I endured for 5 years, was chock full of it too. It, too, was unwatchable. (The cinematography on that show was beautiful but my praise for it ends there.) Since when is Batman/Gotham/Batwoman the equivalent of The Silence of the Lambs?

I may finish this show someday (and I may not), but it's very low on my list of priorities. I had hoped the CW creative team would go a different route than Fox's Gotham but they have not -- peeling faces, severed heads, slashed arteries, and an unrelenting and depressing landscape. Nothing ever changes, nothing gets better. How is this the same universe as Supergirl and the Flash? (And Legends?)
 
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Garysb

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Ruby Rose has quit the show! Batwoman will be recast!

There could be several reasons for this decision. It could have been a mutual decision between the producers and Ms. Rose but they have allowed her to say she chose to leave. Could be the producers wanted to take the show in a new direction that Ms. Rose wasn’t happy with and so she choose to go. She most likely had a seven year contract which the producers let her out of . Hopefully there is no illness. Would seem that Batwoman would be further delayed next season as they would first have to screen test new actresses and then see if they have chemistry with existing cast members. Who knows when any type of filming, including screen tests will be allowed to begin.
 

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