2020 MLB Season

Walter Kittel

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 28, 1998
Messages
7,393
Those other aspects, as if those other aspects should minimize or negate, as you put it, 'the scandal'? That's like thinking the water is clear except for the mud in it. In my post above I acknowledged that they were a good team and good ballplayers. Yet they still felt a need to cheat. And yet no Astros players were punished for that. They're all still doing what they love to do. What's the lesson there?

The organization had some punishments, but they still tweeted out a clueless tweet about winning: "You keep hating. We'll keep winning." Do you have any recognition that was wrong? It comes from having no consequences for the cheating.

No consequences = this is not going away no matter how well the Astros play. Americans are an unusully forgiving people for the most part. If the players and management even remotely suggested they had any remorse for this people might let it go, but they have not and worse, they've thrown it back in people's faces by being clueless as to why it keeps being thrown back at them.
Well, I certainly would have handled things differently if I were in their situation. I personally think that sort of tweet represents a 'circling of the wagons' an 'us vs. the world' sort of viewpoint. I also think that part of the reason why a tweet like that exists is the perception from the Astro's organization that some folks won't be satisfied with almost any sort of punishment leveled against the club and players. As far as the lack of punishment goes, I personally put that on Manfred and the Player's Association although I will admit I am not that well versed on the intricacies of what went on behind the scenes.

I've followed the 'stros since they were the Colt 45s and I am not going to stop following. If you believe some insiders other clubs were doing similar things, but everyone jumps on the Astros. That doesn't make what they did right and as I stated above I would have handled things differently. But the notion that the Astros are the only club to cheat or look for a competitive advantage strikes me as disingenuous or very selective. That is part of the reason why I still follow the club. This post is probably the most I've thought about it since the story broke. In a world with COVID-19 and a host of other problems, this is pretty small potatoes.

Just my S0.02. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion.

- Walter.
 

ManW_TheUncool

His Own Fool
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2001
Messages
7,169
Location
The BK
Real Name
ManW
Manfred probably should've doled out some reasonable, negotiated suspensions that are substantially shorter than they otherwise would've been. IF the MLBPA wanna file grievances against that, let them deal w/ the public backlash regardless of the outcome of such proceedings.

Giving offending players complete immunity is just plain bad.

And Manfred remaining silent and seemingly not doing anything at all about the bad PR happening now — even if just telling the Astros to not raise others’ ire w/ such talk — probably hurts the Game some more...

In some significant ways, this is playing out to be worse than the steroid scandal...

_Man_
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeffrey D

Walter Kittel

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 28, 1998
Messages
7,393
Well it is all moot for the 2020 season with regards to the 'stros. It was fun while it lasted, but congratulations to the Tampa Bay Rays and their fans.

- Walter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Osato

ManW_TheUncool

His Own Fool
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2001
Messages
7,169
Location
The BK
Real Name
ManW
Much congrats to the Rays on a well deserved ALCS and pennant win!

And thanks for putting those classless, remorseless cheaters in their place! Thanks also for saving MLB from further disgrace no thanks to the patsy commish!

Thanks much for representing (and salvaging) what's best about this sport we so love!

_Man_
 
Last edited:

David Norman

Premium
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
6,912
Location
Charlotte, NC
I'm happy the Dodgers get a chance to play in the WS again. They're such an easy team to like with some really fun players and in general no real villians I can think of (maybe Joe Kelly might be the closest). I've really enjoyed watching them play on extra-innings package or mlbtv over hte last couple years -- they play the game right, don't seem to intentionally show up their opponents

I'm not even terribly unhappy that the Braves lost to what I thought was easily the best and most well rounded team in the PostSeason. Dave Roberts seems to be pretty easy to cheer for.

Tampa is such a good story -- no budget to speak of, a bunch of cast off players. It should be a fun Series.

I'm incredibly unhappy with once again just flat out blowing a series that should have been wrapped up and yet again due to multiple self inflicted wounds. This year it was multiple Little League level baserunning mistakes and 2 blunders on the same play tonight by both Swanson and Riley absolutely at a time they could have put the game a lot more in danger -- and then down with a whimper the rest of the night after that play, I've given up counting the number of Sudden Death games this organization has lost over the last 3 decades and the even worse the sheer number of Deciding Games they've lost when in a position to close out of series.
 
Last edited:

ManW_TheUncool

His Own Fool
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2001
Messages
7,169
Location
The BK
Real Name
ManW
I'm happy the Dodgers get a chance to play in the WS again. They're such an easy team to like with some really fun players and in general no real villians I can think of (maybe Joe Kelly might be the closest). I've really enjoyed watching them play on extra-innings package or mlbtv over hte last couple years -- they play the game right, don't seem to intentionally show up their opponents

I'm not even terribly unhappy that the Braves lost to what I thought was easily the best and most well rounded team in the PostSeason. Dave Roberts seems to be pretty easy to cheer for.

Tampa is such a good story -- no budget to speak of, a bunch of cast off players. It should be a fun Series.

I'm incredibly unhappy with once again just flat out blowing a series that should have been wrapped up and yet again due to multiple self inflicted wounds. This year it was multiple Little League level baserunning mistakes and 2 blunders on the same play tonight by both Swanson and Riley absolutely at a time they could have put the game a lot more in danger -- and then down with a whimper the rest of the night after that play, I've given up counting the number of Sudden Death games this organization has lost over the last 3 decades and the even worse the sheer number of Deciding Games they've lost when in a position to close out of series.
Agreed for the most part. I wouldn't get too mad at this Braves team though. They are mostly very young and still relatively inexperienced and has a lot of bright future ahead... and did lose to the likely best team in MLB (as you alluded) afterall...

Should be fun to see some growing rivalries between them and also the Padres and maybe Nationals, Phillies (if they ever put it all together), et al. I wouldn't hold my breath on the Mets of course (and thank goodness I never latched onto them :P ), but they too are at least finally out from under the Wilpons...

The Astros were the only real villains here and deservedly so. The Red Sox might've shared some heat there if they actually got into the playoffs, but probably not nearly as much as the Stros -- the Sox just seemed more classy and more accountable while also having done apparently/probably substantially less wrong, if any at all, re: this scandal... to the point that nobody really mentions them anymore...

_Man_
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeffrey D

Jeffrey D

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
1,566
Real Name
Jeffrey D Hanawalt
Agreed for the most part. I wouldn't get too mad at this Braves team though. They are mostly very young and still relatively inexperienced and has a lot of bright future ahead... and did lose to the likely best team in MLB (as you alluded) afterall...

Should be fun to see some growing rivalries between them and also the Padres and maybe Nationals, Phillies (if they ever put it all together), et al. I wouldn't hold my breath on the Mets of course (and thank goodness I never latched onto them :P ), but they too are at least finally out from under the Wilpons...

The Astros were the only real villains here and deservedly so. The Red Sox might've shared some heat there if they actually got into the playoffs, but probably not nearly as much as the Stros -- the Sox just seemed more classy and more accountable while also having done apparently/probably substantially less wrong, if any at all, re: this scandal... to the point that nobody really mentions them anymore...

_Man_
The Braves had better figure out how to close out series, and soon (that loss to the Cardinals in last year’s NLDS was terrible- they had game 4 won, and choked it away).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Osato

David Norman

Premium
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
6,912
Location
Charlotte, NC
Holy mother. What an abominably pitched and played game. That has got to be the worst played, most exciting game, best worst game (or worst best game?) I've seen in years. Both teams came through and choked in alternating patterns, They really should give at least 3 or 4 errors on that last play.

How many "the only pitch you can't make right here" that ended up right there and the hitters didn't miss one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Osato

Walter Kittel

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 28, 1998
Messages
7,393
The Rays were incredibly resilient last night. Down to their last strike on two consecutive batters and they score the final two runs to even the series. What a game.

It will be interesting to see how the Dodgers respond to the Rays' improbable comeback in game 4.

- Walter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeffrey D

Robert Crawford

Crawdaddy
Moderator
Patron
Joined
Dec 9, 1998
Messages
50,197
Location
Michigan
Real Name
Robert
I'm happy that Kershaw is having a strong WS as I hate when players with great careers get badly stained when they don't have postseason success.
 

Carlo Medina

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 31, 1997
Messages
12,124
I'm happy that Kershaw is having a strong WS as I hate when players with great careers get badly stained when they don't have postseason success.
My buddy in Boston, who is a big Red Sox fan but is also a big Betts fan (and so has been following the Dodgers) sent me this writeup about Kershaw. It's from a Boston based baseball blogger, so it contains some very NSFW language; if you're offended by a couple of F-bombs (used in a humorous way), don't click here. Otherwise, it's a great read.

As a lifelong Dodger fan, I understood that Kershaw did not maintain his lofty regular-season stats in the postseason. But I always thought his legacy was much maligned by a small handful of bad outings. One of which we know now for sure was marred by some trashcan banging, and hitters knowing what was coming. People forget he was lights out in G1 of that WS and pitched great relief innings in G7, when hi-def cameras weren't stealing his catcher's signs. They remember the runs the Astros tattooed on him when, oh I don't know how to best describe it...they knew what pitch was coming.

But sometimes, fanbases are "too close" to the situation and make more out of things than is warranted (what? shocking, I know). It took a writer on the other side of the country to give us in La-La Land some perspective.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MartinP.

David Norman

Premium
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
6,912
Location
Charlotte, NC
Congratulations to Dodgers and Dodgers fans for a well deserved if belated WS/


I hope this is the death of scripted pitching changes regardless of what;s going on in the game,

Can you imagine what Feller or Gibson or Seaver or Ryan or Jack Morris would have done if the manager had attempted to remove them in that situation. I've seen questionable decisions in the last few years, but I'll be danged if I can remember anything approaching the Baseball Abomination of this Decision that Killed Sabermetrics. A travesty that the Gods of Baseball just couldn't leave unpunished.

After probably being cheated out of 1 if not 2 WS titles, it's at least a small balancing in the Universe that LA wins this year.
 

TonyD

Who do we think I am?
Premium
Ambassador
Joined
Dec 1, 1999
Messages
20,783
Location
Gulf Coast
Real Name
Tony D.
They all are.
It’s very rare that a manager just goes with his gut or common sense.

Snell was ripping through the Dodgers tonight.

Post game interviews with several Dodgers had them admit to being relieved when Cash took Snell out of the game.
 

David Norman

Premium
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
6,912
Location
Charlotte, NC
Aren't the Dodgers doing the same thing with scripted pitching changes?

Certainly more than I'd like to see, but nothing close to the abomination of removing Snell in the 6th of that critical game.

Dusty won a lot of respect from me back toward the Astros with the way he handled that series against the Rays.

I was already on the record with the Dodgers before the Postseason started as the best overall team so sometimes Talent does win out in the end. I would still have liked to see the Dodgers/Padres series with a healthy Clevenger/Lamet but some things weren't to be.
 

Robert Crawford

Crawdaddy
Moderator
Patron
Joined
Dec 9, 1998
Messages
50,197
Location
Michigan
Real Name
Robert
Certainly more than I'd like to see, but nothing close to the abomination of removing Snell in the 6th of that critical game.

Dusty won a lot of respect from me back toward the Astros with the way he handled that series against the Rays.

I was already on the record with the Dodgers before the Postseason started as the best overall team so sometimes Talent does win out in the end. I would still have liked to see the Dodgers/Padres series with a healthy Clevenger/Lamet but some things weren't to be.
Yeah, but wasn't Roberts criticized for doing the same thing in regard to scripted pitching changes when they lost those two WS series? Anyhow, this time it worked out fine for Dodgers, but I think scripted pitching changes are here to stay for a while because the Dodgers were just better at getting it done this year than the Rays. I didn't watch any of the games, but it appears the Rays bullpen ran out of gas.
 

David Norman

Premium
Joined
Oct 12, 2001
Messages
6,912
Location
Charlotte, NC
Just amusing listening/reading the Ex and current MLB player reactions and it's as close 100% -- WTH is going on.
These started within seconds of Cash motioning for the new reliever and not even waiting for the results.
Not a single player even remotely supported the Manager.

Some of the ex-managers are being a bit more diplomatic (esp those that may still be on the radar for getting hired again), but it's pretty obvious NONE of them actually agree with the decision

Some of the tapes of Fox, ESPN, and MLB Network with real time live commentary during the game were unanimous in disagreeing on the spot (vehemently might be an understatement) and then having a wonderful time doing I told you so in the post game analysis.
Arod, Papi, Frank Thomas, Pedro Martinez, Showalter, Al Leiter, Plesac.

I hate Christopher Russo's show, but it might be amusing for about 20 seconds to hear his rant tomorrow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jeffrey D

Forum Sponsors

Forum statistics

Threads
345,516
Messages
4,743,954
Members
141,468
Latest member
Gerani53