2020 MLB Season

Jeffrey D

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Just amusing listening/reading the Ex and current MLB player reactions and it's as close 100% -- WTH is going on.
These started within seconds of Cash motioning for the new reliever and not even waiting for the results.
Not a single player even remotely supported the Manager.

Some of the ex-managers are being a bit more diplomatic (esp those that may still be on the radar for getting hired again), but it's pretty obvious NONE of them actually agree with the decision

Some of the tapes of Fox, ESPN, and MLB Network with real time live commentary during the game were unanimous in disagreeing on the spot (vehemently might be an understatement) and then having a wonderful time doing I told you so in the post game analysis.
Arod, Papi, Frank Thomas, Pedro Martinez, Showalter, Al Leiter, Plesac.

I hate Christopher Russo's show, but it might be amusing for about 20 seconds to hear his rant tomorrow.
The scripted pitching change that you guys are talking about- this practice should have been criticized when the Brewers manager
took Wade Miley out in game 2 of the NLCS a couple of years ago. The manager contributed to blowing that game, and the series with his over-managing. Glad to hear Cash is getting unanimously ripped over this.
 

Robert Crawford

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The scripted pitching change that you guys are talking about- this practice should have been criticized when the Brewers manager
took Wade Miley out in game 2 of the NLCS a couple of years ago. The manager contributed to blowing that game, and the series with his over-managing. Glad to hear Cash is getting unanimously ripped over this.
It's not entirely Cash's fault. He's taking the flak for the organization. The Rays GM and metric guys should be up there answering questions in the postgame as they're the ones issuing the game plan to Cash.
 
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Museum Pieces

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Sometimes a manager just needs to trust what his eyes are seeing. It really can be that simple. As a Dodgers fan, I was thrilled when they pulled Snell. I actually feel bad for him, though. I don't like baseball when numbers take the game away from players who are out there competing. He'd given up no runs, no walks, nine strikeouts, and they yank him. The fact that all the Dodgers were smiling should have been a clue to the Rays.
 
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Walter Kittel

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I understand in a tight game that you don't have a lot of margin for error, but Snell was on fire and had only faced one batter over the minimum, and it isn't like they had to save Snell for another game. Hindsight is 20/20 but still it seems like a really bad decision. (??)

Congrats to the Dodgers and their fans.

- Walter.
 
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Carlo Medina

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Ironically, Andrew Friedman (current Dodgers President of Baseball Operations) was front office for the Rays and is the big Sabermetrics guy who is responsible for both organizations (over)reliance on it.

It's fitting for Roberts that the very few times (too few, in the eyes of his critics who until the win last night were getting very vociferous) he strayed from Sabermetrics were the difference in the last two playoff series.

Both involved letting Urias have a multi-inning outing to save the game, a 3-inning affair vs. the Braves which culminated in a comeback from a 3-1 deficit, and a 2 1/3 inning outing last night to close out the Rays rather than bring Kenley (or another reliever) in.

I follow the Dodgers closely, and like Dave as a person and fellow Bruin alum, but he's done what Cash did to Kershaw, and other starting pitchers in the past...luckily not in high-stakes season-ending games, but what Cash did last night...let's just say when he did it, I wrote "He Out-Roberts'd Roberts" on my friends text thread as soon as he made the move.

Hopefully this will be the beginning of using Sabermetrics as a guide and as opposed to as gospel. For both franchises. For as much as I wanted the Dodgers to win, I felt really bad for Snell. I had seen that movie multiple times, and knew how it ended.
 
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Museum Pieces

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Hindsight is 20/20 but still it seems like a really bad decision. (??)
It was, even if the numbers disagree. And here's why. If you're playing 162 games, at least an argument could be made that over the course of a long season, the numbers are right more than they are wrong. Just like defensive shifting. But this is an elimination game. You have to trust what your eyes are seeing: 9 strikeouts, zero walks, no runs, batters looking foolish. The numbers are less likely to be with you in a single game, especially an elimination game in the World Series, when your pitcher is on fire.

It was nuts. But Dave Roberts did the same thing in game 2 of the 2017 series, and it was just as nuts then. Cost us that game. But Dave Roberts (I pray) has learned his lesson, the proof being he didn't pull Urias after eight but let him finish it off.

In past years, he pulls Urias. But he is learning to trust what his eyes tell him, not what the numbers say, especially in a game that is its own season.
 
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Johnny Angell

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As the years go by I have lost most of my interest in baseball. It’s incredibly slow and boring. I thought they were discussing putting a play clock on each pitch to speed up the game. Obviously, that’s not happened. IMHO, the game needs some updates. These Sabermetrics sound like trying to reduce the game to a spreadsheet.

All IMHO, of course.
 

Johnny Angell

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Stupid manager moves are nothing new. Many, many years ago a Padres pitcher was flirting with a no-hitter. The manager pulled him late in the game for a pinch hitter trying to win the game. Yeah, that’s what teams should do, win. Except these Padres were cellar dwellers and the franchise still doesn’t have a no-hitter to my knowledge.
 
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Robert Crawford

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It was nuts. But Dave Roberts did the same thing in game 2 of the 2017 series, and it was just as nuts then. Cost us that game. But Dave Roberts (I pray) has learned his lesson, the proof being he didn't pull Urias after eight but let him finish it off.

In past years, he pulls Urias. But he is learning to trust what his eyes tell him, not what the numbers say, especially in a game that is its own season.
I don't think Roberts got any smarter as I think the game plan was for Urias, if effective was to finish the game, especially because of Jansen's ineffectiveness as a closer in these playoffs.

Sabermetrics drives the top teams in MLB. The Dodgers were victorious because they were deeper and that their great lineup was able to put some runs on the board against the Rays bullpen which wasn't as good in this WS as they were in the 60 game season.
 

MartinP.

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Congratulations to the Los Angeles Dodgers!

The past ten years have been increasingly rough for the fans, inching closer every year, sometimes one step forward, two steps back, getting to the WS twice and falling, then finding out you were cheated on, being sucker-punched by elimination early last year and then this year there was the possibility a season might not even happen. So very happy this particular group won, so many have been there together.

Dave Roberts should send a note to Kevin Cash that says "I know how you feel." Roberts has been criticized so many times the last few post-seasons for either taking pitchers out early or leaving them in way too long. This year he got through it, even trusting a pitcher here and there and leaving them in when he normally wouldn't've.

Loved afterwards when the Dodger fans in attendance booed the Baseball Commissioner.

One thing I liked during the series, too. It wasn't pervasive, but several times Dodger fans were shown holding up some signs and that's something we never get to see (or do) at Dodger Stadium. I'm told the reason is that it's a fire regulation. Is it really? I don't know.
If so, why isn't it at other stadiums? Anyway, I liked that.
 
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Museum Pieces

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I don't think Roberts got any smarter
I disagree, as hard as it is to admit. I've watched every Dodgers game since he's been the manager. He used to bring Jansen in no matter what in the ninth if he was rested and it was a save situation, even if he'd been struggling and there was another arm he could have gone to. And I was screaming at the TV because I knew Jansen would blow the save. Has Roberts totally given up the numbers? No. But I think he's learned that metrics help over a long season, not so much when a single game is all that matters.

There was a time he would pull Urias when he was on fire. I've seen him do it more than once. The problem with the numbers game is that it assumes the pitcher you go to will perform like the numbers say. Any time you change a pitcher, it's a gamble; you don't know what you're going to get.

But I agree with you why the Dodgers won. I've been watching them since 1988 when they last won it all, and this is by far the most complete team they have ever fielded. And when they got Mookie, well, it's almost unfair.
 

Carlo Medina

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I don't think Roberts got any smarter as I think the game plan was for Urias, if effective was to finish the game, especially because of Jansen's ineffectiveness as a closer in these playoffs.

Sabermetrics drives the top teams in MLB. The Dodgers were victorious because they were deeper and that their great lineup was able to put some runs on the board against the Rays bullpen which wasn't as good in this WS as they were in the 60 game season.
I agree with your last point but respectfully disagree with your first. Robert’s has been a sabermetrics adherent and has rarely if ever allowed relievers to go anywhere near that long. In fact I am sure the minimum three batter rule was put in specifically against the sabermetrics trend to pull pitchers after as little as one hitter. There was nothing in his history (and I say this a Dodger fan who watches as many games as I can each year) that indicated he’d leave Urias in there in either game.

In fact at the Zoom watch parties my friends and I had for the playoffs we were all stunned (and happy) he left Urias in there for three innings vs the Braves. And last night we said “what are the chances he learned from the Braves series...and Cash’s own flub earlier in the game...and leaves Urias again?” To our pleasant surprise he did. But he, just like Cash, has had a history of pulling pitchers because sabermetrics tells him to. And sabermetrics steadfastly believes relievers drop off in terms of effectiveness the more batters they face.
 
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Robert Crawford

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I agree with your last point but respectfully disagree with your first. Robert’s has been a sabermetrics adherent and has rarely if ever allowed relievers to go anywhere near that long. In fact I am sure the minimum three batter rule was put in specifically against the sabermetrics trend to pull pitchers after as little as one hitter. There was nothing in his history (and I say this a Dodger fan who watches as many games as I can each year) that indicated he’d leave Urias in there in either game.

In fact at the Zoom watch parties my friends and I had for the playoffs we were all stunned (and happy) he left Urias in there for three innings vs the Braves. And last night we said “what are the chances he learned from the Braves series...and Cash’s own flub earlier in the game...and leaves Urias again?” To our pleasant surprise he did. But he, just like Cash, has had a history of pulling pitchers because sabermetrics tells him to. And sabermetrics steadfastly believes relievers drop off in terms of effectiveness the more batters they face.
Urias only threw 27 pitches so I don’t agree with you especially considering you don’t have a reliable closer. IMO, Roberts had no choice but to stick with a very effective Urias that got 7 outs on just 27 pitches.
 

Robert Crawford

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By the way, the decision to not use Jansen as the closer for the remaining WS games was an organizational decision. If you think Roberts made that decision on his own then I don't think you're paying attention to how these teams heavily into sabermetrics operate today. Decision-making floats from the top down to the manager. He is given a game plan to follow, but teams will never admit to that publicly, otherwise, they have also be called on to answer those post game questions. There is a reason why the GMs make so much more money than their managers for most of the MLB teams.

Anyhow, I said my piece so I won't belabored the point so Dodgers fans can enjoy their WS victory. It's on to the offseason in which I expect a ton of players to get non-tendered and released to be free agents in a tough free agency market as MLB teams lost a ton of revenue. The top free agents will probably still get their monies, but the rest of them are going to find their bargaining position compromised by a depressed free agent market.
 

Jeffrey D

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Stupid manager moves are nothing new. Many, many years ago a Padres pitcher was flirting with a no-hitter. The manager pulled him late in the game for a pinch hitter trying to win the game. Yeah, that’s what teams should do, win. Except these Padres were cellar dwellers and the franchise still doesn’t have a no-hitter to my knowledge.
You are correct- the Padres are the only current franchise in baseball that doesn’t have a 9 inning no-no thrown by 1 pitcher.
 
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Jeffrey D

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Speaking of the Padres- has anybody gotten the chance to listen to Ted Leitner, their radio voice? He’s affectionately referred to as Uncle Teddy by his radio partners. He and Uecker are the most entertaining play-by-play guys on the air today.
 
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Johnny Angell

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Speaking of the Padres- has anybody gotten the chance to listen to Ted Leitner, their radio voice? He’s affectionately referred to as Uncle Teddy by his radio partners. He and Uecker are the most entertaining play-by-play guys on the air today.
We loved Ted when we lived in San Diego. He’s still trucking on? Him and Bob Uecker must be a blast to listen too.
 
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TonyD

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I listened to the Cards radio in the first round and heard their PxP guy continually call one Padre player Moo-Chatch-Oh
 

Osato

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Tony LaRussa is back!

Probably a good move by the white Sox.

Free agency should be very interesting this off-season. Will teams spend or not?
 

Jeffrey D

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I listened to the Cards radio in the first round and heard their PxP guy continually call one Padre player Moo-Chatch-Oh
I think you’re referring to Mike Shannon. Don’t care for him, but he’s been there forever, so the Cardinals fans must love him.
 

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