The Saint Possibly Coming from Shout! in April 2015 (1 Viewer)

[Pathfiner]

I said several times it was my opinion (only that) but never tried to state my opinion as being FACT - no one's is...!



Looking at the sixties episodes from decades on it's easy to lose sight of what was happening back then at the time - Leslie Charteris stories were updated (hence he moaned like hell about it) to fit the 1962-65 period BUT by 1966 TV tastes were changing ALOT - as I said the later Avengers don't resemble the Ian Hendry or Honor Blackman eras at all, nor does the more offbeat 'Prisoner' episodes like 'Free For All' & 'Fall Out' bear any resemblance to the more conventional approach of 'Arrival', 'It's Your Funeral' etc


'Danger Man' later had some very offbeat episodes such as 'The Paper Chase' & 'The Ubiqitous Mr. Lovegrove' (circa 1966) plus more James Bondish action & gadget laden ones like the final two colour episodes set in Japan (the latter two going in a direction which McGoohan disliked) - which bear scant resemblance to the early half hour show or even the 1963-65 episodes - like The Beatles 'Tomorrow Never Knows' (1966) bears NO similarity to the approach of say 'She Loves You' (1963) or 'Ticket To Ride' (1965) etc


which is "Better" is purely a matter of opinion


some b/w episodes of The Saint are very 'plodding' compared with the later colour faster paced ones & each reflect the era they were made in


I think it's unfair & incorrect to say the show 'went down the Toilet' - there were always perfectly watchable & enjoyable episodes in each season from 1962 to 1969, while we need to remember that the 'zanier' zappy style of say 'The Power Artists' & 'The Ficton Makers' reflect how the sixties moved & you can see this in many other long running shows of that era - The Man From UNCLE, Avengers, The Wild Wild West, etc - even 'The Name of The Game' had some very 'offbeat' episodes (Gene Barry ones) that bore scant resemblance to the 'straighter' Gene Barry episodes


it was a sign of the times & you can see this in the sixties music of The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Byrds, Hollies,Small Faces, etc....where the material they were doing in say 1967 was a zillion light years away from their 1963-65 music.


Terry Nation's Saint script was reused in 'The Baron' (both screened the same night by accident in the USA causing viewer protests !)


BUT that's normal (just bad TV schedule !) - The Avengers rehashed a few b/w scripts in colour - 'Don't Look Behind You' with Honor Blackman became 'Death's Door' with Diana Rigg where Cathy/Emma are alone in a strange old mansion house & subjected to a series of terror inducing taunts...


Several 'Naked City' scripts are redone in colour in 'The Streets of San Francisco' (one Barry Trivers script re a guy with a bullet in him), another sees James Franciscus (later Mike Douglas) go undercover posing as a deranged inmate in a mental heatlth hospital in order to track down a killer....


A 'Virginian' script is later reused in 'Alias Smith And Jones' where James Drury / Ben Murphy break into a sealed room in an elderly couples' home looking for missing money...only to discover the cobwebbed room of their long deceased infant - both apologise & say before they go they will fix the lock....(the lines are identical !)


the much lauded 'Star Trek' borrowed it's ground breaking ideas from Hollywood films, earlier TV Sci Fi shows, TV Westerns, TV Cop shows...left, right, & centre - while Star Trek: TNG & others did likewise (plus borrowed from 'Star Trek' itself !)


so 're-use' of scripts (normally duly updated) are common either in long running shows or between shows...and can't be seen as any criticism of a particular show, writer, or production.

 

[turtledove]

This is a forum. Every post is someones opinion. That it is opinion and not fact is surely obvious to everyone.

What was going on in the 60's is irrelevant.

The shows are being viewed today and I review them and watch them as a viewer of today.

Shortcomings can be explained away by what was happening in tv and in society but it really doesn't make any difference.



Reuse of scripts can easily be used as a criticism.

The B&W Saint episodes are all based on original Charteris stories which is why they are so good and they do standout. Have you actually watched The Baron, Danger Man , Man In A Suitcase etc?


The majority of the colour episodes were written by the same ITC hacks who moved from one ITC show to another recycling similar styles and ideas and for me this is an easy explanation as to why many of the colour Saint stories are so weak.


Obviously you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine but as a viewer of The Saint since the 60's and a collector of ITC shows on home video for 35 years I am just passing on the message that the general consensus among fans is that the colour series are much weaker than the B&W ones which is not to say there are not plenty of enjoyable colour ones.

It's just a shame that the ignorance of the tv broadcasters who perhaps rightly assume viewers don't like B&W ITV have shown the colour episodes repeatedly in the last 9 years yet the B&W era hasn't been shown on terrestrial tv since the 70's and it's last UK showing on satellite was 20 years ago,thus denying fans of the very best Saint episodes


The Mr Lovegrove Danger Man episode was made in 1964 and aired in February 1965.

And I don't think you can compare reused Avengers scripts from the VT era reshot in the film era to the ITC method of reusing scripts for different shows entirely - which goes to show the interchangeability of the various series for which the colour Saint is one.

The sheer variety of plots and genre in the B&W series make it compulsive viewing. The colour era is a bit samey with few surprises that set it apart from the other ITC shows being made at the time.


But lets not argue anymore. We both like The Saint and it's great that the US have finally got the whole lot. B&W era on Bluray would be lovely but I fear not in my lifetime

 

[Osato]

I love this series as well both color and black and white episodes.

 

[Pathfiner]

I too love both the b/w and colour version of the show


what was happening in the sixties IS relevant re how shows evolved over THAT time they were made in, and thus looked - that's a simple fact of reality that can't be denied can it..?


otherwise comments made are purely the opinion of each poster (obviously)


I tried for ages to get the b/w episodes of both The Saint and The Man From UNCLE back on UK Television...but to no avail - tho' a few cable channels DID rerun them all in the late 80's - now in the UK True Entertainment cable channel are rerunning the b/w 1965 Avengers Steed/Emma series...and CBS Horror channel are rerunning 'The Wild Wild West' and DID show the 1965 b/w first season , now they are showing colour season two....so maybe the tide is starting to turn re b/w shows at last reappearing on Television in the UK ...


I have ALL of The Saint, Baron, Man in A Suitcase, Department S & other ITC series (plus all known surviving episodes of 'The Avengers' & 'New Avengers') - some film 'Avengers' scripts got reused too - 'House That Jack Built' basic idea was reused in 'Killer' (1969) then again later in 'The New Avengers' in 'Complex', while the core idea of 'The Hour That Never Was' (1965) was reused in 'The Morning After' (1969) & later in The New Avengers in 'Sleeper'


The colour Saint - which DID include some Leslie Charteris stories - has a slickness & a more stylish 'polish' that very much reflects the 1966-69 era that is just not in the b/w show - the pacing is often alot faster too and the budget increased (Roger Moore spoke of how the original series sometimes used natural light as opposed to studio lighting !)


ITC did some videos where they paired up a b/w & colour episode - I found BOTH equally enjoyable, and you could see both strengths & weaknesses in each, but overall both were great !


I don't find all the Leslie Charteris stories that brilliant - some are predictable with rather old fashioned attitudes, while 'The Talented Husband' pilot episode was a joke - could anybody honestly NOT see 'Mrs. Jafferty' was really the husband dressed up in a wig and dress....?? lol (and just how daft can a "trusting" wife be ?) - it was however far more varied with a sense of International adventure despite clearly being 'Elstree as' with stock footage - the colour show was firmly based in the UK with just some European jaunts & the odd West indies tale ('Island of Chance' etc) or 'Malta as Italy' ('Vendetta For The Saint') again stock footage is often used (the show's budget was never that big in colour or b/w but a bit more seems to have been spent on it later on)


the colour episodes are a bit more 'samey' I would agree - Templar fights crime plus the odd 'woman central character' episode and it was firmly aimed at the USA market too by Grade which probably accounts for a more heroic 'action/adventure' format as opposed to Charteris 'wandering man of the world' approach


I always try to avoid accepting 'fandom's accepted view' of anything - I think mostly it's down to a few very vocal 'fanboys' calling the shots duly passing off THEIR views as being: 'fact' & alot of 'sheeple' then blindly agree thus it becomes the 'accepted norm' in 'fandom' etc (but not by me !)


there ARE plenty of great colour episodes of The Saint I feel, as well as many great b/w episodes.

 

[turtledove]

As I said , what was going on in tv and in society does explain why shows can be the way they are but to me it's not important as I'm watching them today as a modern viewer and it's the strengths of the ITC shows that are the reason we still watch them today unlike the vast majority of tv that was made at the same time.

When B&W Saint was on there was no other UK show on like it. The Saint was almost ended before Danger Man returned in his one hour format but by the time colour Saint appeared (albeit still in B&W on British tv) it was one of the ITC shows that people had already got to know. The Baron and Man In A Suitcase were already ending so The Saint was not as much of a novelty and survived on the presence of Roger Moore. I think ITC realised this which was why the next batch of ITC shows took the departure to fantasy based adventure so The Champions, Department S and Randall & Hopkirk were a little different from what had come before. I think ITV regions were getting bored of the similar formats of the action man shows.


I've watched the B&W era several times in the last 20 years and I always find the colour era poor in comparison so it's nothing to do with fanboys- I find the colour run a bit of a slog once the interesting ones like The Convenient Monster and House On Dragons Rock are over ( I can even forgive the embarassing ant in Dragons Rock that really should have been hidden away as long as possible in the episode).

Queens Ransom , Death In Venice have moments but by and large they all follow the colour template.

The B&W era could be gangsters in the US one week, crooks in a small English village the next, hunting through underground caverns the next.

I'm now halfway through the colour ones again (on the DD set) and The Counterfeit Countess was quite a good one in comparison to the last few weeks - so that shows how the standard drops. Did they think we didn't know it was Kate O Mara in a dual role?


As for the B&W episodes of Saint and Uncle, nobody has shown them all for several decades.


The B&W Saint vanished off most ITV regions by 1972 although a handful including Thames and ATV did continue to play them in morning and afternoon slots when the people that really wanted to see them couldn't.


In the video era only Bravo has aired the B&W Saint around 1995 and they missed 2 out on the first run but when they repeated it immediately after one of the ones they skipped Sign of the Claw was stuck in unannounced as a replacement for another one. Well Meaning Mayor didn't get shown.


Bravo were also the only ones to show B&W Uncle ( last seen on the BBC in the 60's - ITV showed some colour ones in the 70's) in the early 90's where they showed 26 of the 29 episodes although they just missed out the last 3. The ones that formed part of the movies were included in the Bravo run.


Bravo also showed colour Saint but just as BBC2 did a few years later the 2 parters made from the features were missing and all 8 of the episodes in colour Uncle that went into the movies were also skipped.

 

[Pathfiner]

Roger Moore signed up thinking they would be 25-30 minute episode shows, and was surprised to find they were 50 minutes !


Leslie Charteris detested Canadian Harry W. Junkin from the word go - calling him 'Junkin' & LOATHED what he did to his stories



The Saint (New World Productions) actually finished in 1965 when they completed the b/w episodes (about 76 episodes or so - one season had been a very short one) produced by Robert S. Baker and Monty Berman - Berman then moved on to helm 'The Champions' & 'The Baron' in 1966 and later 'Department S' and 'Randall and Hopkirk Deceased circa 1968-69


Monty Berman was a clear loss to 'The Saint'


- Baker and Berman also made 'Gideon's Way' in 1965 while handling The Saint, which was an excellent early sixties Crime series starring John Gregson - like a British version of 'Naked City'



The US Networks then wanted more Saint episodes in colour - hence Rog & Bob Baker formed 'Bamore' Productions specifically aiming them at the American market and made 43 or so more episodes largely keeping the same team & the same set of guest stars & support actors (a very 'British' show for the Yanks who loved Roger Moore as they did Patrick Macnee in 'The Avengers') - this probably explains the amount of American guest stars & British actors playing Americans, the increase in action/adventure, the faster pacing, and the narrowing of the focus to crime & gangster type tales in the colour era - it was aimed firmly at American audiences where as the b/w ones were aimed essentially at British/American & European (even Austrailian) audiences


The colour episodes; 'Paper Chase', 'The People importers', 'The Angel's Eye', 'The Best Laid Schemes', 'The World Beater', 'The Gadic Collection', 'The Man Who Liked Lions', the unusual 'The Double Take' (re a guy supposedly being impersonated by a double - anticipating aspects of Rog's film 'The Man Who Haunted Himself'), & the two part 'Vendetta For The Saint' (which was a Charteris storyline adapted - and forms the core story basis of the Bond film 'Licence To Kill' in many ways) all had their merits


'The Gadget Lovers' was an interesting colour episode too - played a bit tongue in cheek but it's overall story re gadgets and various killing methods (remember the later umbrella murder in 1976 ?) was good



'The Ex-King of Diamonds' was a dry run for 'The Persuaders !' pilot 'Overture' - while 'Where The Money Is' was redone to a large extent in 'The Persuaders !' made more comedic as 'To The Death Baby'


'The Saint' actually remained 'straighter' overall than 'The Avengers' often did - 'Epic', 'Bizarre', 'Homicide And Old Lace' etc were played out and out for laughs (as some third season 'Man From UNCLE' & 'Wild Wild West' episodes were)


Overall I enjoy both b/w & colour episodes of 'The Saint' and I think too much derision is thrown at the colour episodes (one of the weaker colour ones 'The Helpful Pirate' was adapted from a Leslie Charteris idea !)


The b/w ones had more variation and settings, while they had alot of b/w stock footage to help them create Miami ('The Effete Angler'), New York ('The Element of Doubt'), the Eastern jungle ('Mark of The Claw') even the Australian outback on one occasion ...at Elstree in a very cold February !


they duly 'shaved off' a few rough edges of Simon Templar later in colour too - early on without any hesitation he dishes out some instant justice here & there as per the books & is not always 100% legit (things like ensuring that evil bomb maker guest star David Kossoff blows himself & his boss up !) - from 1966 onwards that kind of thing would not be deemed acceptable so the colour episodes had to make him a total 'nice guy' (putting back the jewel he's tempted to lift in 'The Queen's Ransom' - which was a crime angled rewrite of 'The Golden Journey's' taming of the shrew idea)


also things like Templar's hands being seen to be badly burnt in 'The Saint Plays With Fire' (1962) and another early episode where thugs break into an office and beat a guy to death... would not be deemed 'acceptable' later in the sixties hence the colour episodes don't have aspects like those...a guy might be shot or knocked out later, or having already been beaten up badly but not actually being seen in the process of being beaten up so badly he then dies, the TV violence had to be made less openly brutal later by order of the networks...


one of my favs is 'The Scorpion' where guest star Geoffrey Bayldon is a righteous respectable lawyer (and 'The Scorpion' blackmailer) who steadfastly comments; 'I'm no more narrow minded than other men in my profession... I just happen to admire integrity' (probably because he had NONE himself !!) lol

 

[turtledove]

Just watched Simon & Delilah. Oh dear.

 

[MaxMorrow]

What was going on in the 60's is irrelevant.

The shows are being viewed today and I review them and watch them as a viewer of today.

Shortcomings can be explained away by what was happening in tv and in society but it really doesn't make any difference.

I understand that some older things might not hold up well for a present day viewer, but from my personal point of view (obviously) context means quite a lot, and I think it's possible to be a viewer of today and still have that context remain relevant.


But of course, to each their own. Not intended as a criticism of your views, just presenting an alternate viewpoint. Carry on

 

[ScottRE]

I enjoy the color episodes more, myself. The music is also really good overall. The Network cd soundtrack set is really amazing. Very jazzy and fun. Love the ITC punch ups.

 

[turtledove]

I understand that some older things might not hold up well for a present day viewer, but from my personal point of view (obviously) context means quite a lot, and I think it's possible to be a viewer of today and still have that context remain relevant.


But of course, to each their own. Not intended as a criticism of your views, just presenting an alternate viewpoint. Carry on

When I said they were irrelevant it was in the sense that , for The Saint at least , the shortcomings inherent in any old show for various reasons connected to its age make no difference as I find The Saint (B&W era) stands up as a great adventure series without having to forgive it for anything connected to its production.


There are lots of shows that modern viewers cannot watch simply because they are old but us fans of classic tv appreciate why some shows are the way they are and we make allowances for it . For me , I don't find I need to make allowances for the B&W era but I do for the colour era and even then I just can't get past some of the problems.


Even classic Dr Who, some of the stories I loved as a kid I make allowances for and am able to become 12 again and enjoy them but some are just so bad for whatever reason even making allowances for its low budget I find them a real slog.


One of the things about The Saint I find is that the colour era tries to be so trendy and current which ironically dates it more than the B&W era which for me at least is relatively timeless

 

[turtledove]

I enjoy the color episodes more, myself. The music is also really good overall. The Network cd soundtrack set is really amazing. Very jazzy and fun. Love the ITC punch ups.

I have the colour Saint cd set from Network and its one of my biggest disappointments that the tapes for the B&W era are apparently lost.

I find that most of the music I like from the colour era is reused stuff from the B&W era.

 

[Osato]

I have the colour Saint cd set from Network and its one of my biggest disappointments that the tapes for the B&W era are apparently lost.
I find that most of the music I like from the colour era is reused stuff from the B&W era.

I have the network set as well. Love it. I'd love a set with more music from the show. A set of the persuaders music would be great too but I believe these tapes are lost if not destroyed?

 

[bigshot]

I've been watching the monochrome set and I've enjoyed every episode I've watched. The color series didn't seem to have quite as high a batting average, but in the color series Roger Moore seemed more Bond-ish, he's more youthful in the b&w

 

[turtledove]

I have the network set as well. Love it. I'd love a set with more music from the show. A set of the persuaders music would be great too but I believe these tapes are lost if not destroyed?

My B&W series Saint dvd boxsets are from Australia and several episodes have isolated music and effects tracks. I did try to create my own cd but having lifted the audio tracks off the discs it was too time consuming trying to edit the track which contained sound effects too. But the existence of the tracks do show that it might be possible for someone like Network to create some kind of cd of the B&W era.


Yes The Persuaders music also lost but The Music of ITC double cd from Network does include 2 or 3 tracks but I think the incidental music has been lifted directly from an episode soundtrack- not sure where from though.


But perhaps , just as the music of Gideons Way has turned up since that cd said it was lost we might hear more from The Persuaders at some point

 

[Darby67]

Seasons 3 and 4 are coming 1/4/16: http://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Saint-Season-3-and-4/21645


Darby

 

[Osato]

Set 1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S4YGV16?keywords=saint%20moore&qid=1447297709&ref_=sr_1_3&s=instant-video&sr=8-3


Set 2

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016NVSLAU?keywords=saint%20moore&qid=1447298048&ref_=sr_1_4&s=instant-video&sr=8-4


complete Series set

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S4YGVZM?keywords=saint%20moore&qid=1447298048&ref_=sr_1_1&s=instant-video&sr=8-1


I'll stick with my Network DVD set.


Are the new extras any good?

 

[JeffT.]

In my thinking Sean Connery will always be the definitive James Bond. The man is a (primarily) a film actor with awesome screen presence.

But by the same token Roger Moore will always be the definitive Simon Templer aka The Saint. I think this is the fundamental flaw with the casting of Mr. Moore, who was primarily a television actor, as Bond. Physically Roger Moore looks much better on the "small" screen than he does on the more expansive larger one. If anything the "Moore" Bond proved that it takes much more than a polished, well-tailored English gentleman to convincingly portray James Bond.

Has anyone actually purchased the recent THE SAINT (Syndicated 1962-66, NBC 1967-69) DVD box set? If so, then just how many episodes are minted per disc?

There are supposed to be 33 discs to this complete series box set which should amply translate to 4 hour long episodes per discs (which is the proper maximum to house the series).

Jeff T.

 

[Osato]

In my thinking Sean Connery will always be the definitive James Bond. The man is a (primarily) a film actor with awesome screen presence.

But by the same token Roger Moore will always be the definitive Simon Templer aka The Saint. I think this is the fundamental flaw with the casting of Mr. Moore, who was primarily a television actor, as Bond. Physically Roger Moore looks much better on the "small" screen than he does on the more expansive larger one. If anything the "Moore" Bond proved that it takes much more than a polished, well-tailored English gentleman to convincingly portray James Bond.

Has anyone actually purchased the recent THE SAINT (Syndicated 1962-66, NBC 1967-69) DVD box set? If so, then just how many episodes are minted per disc?

There are supposed to be 33 discs to this complete series box set which should amply translate to 4 hour long episodes per discs (which is the proper maximum to house the series).

Jeff T.

It's a great show! I did not buy the new set as I have the fantastic network DVD sets from 10 years ago.

I am curious if there were some extras added to this set.
The network sets have quite a number of extras on them.

 

[Darby67]

In my thinking Sean Connery will always be the definitive James Bond. The man is a (primarily) a film actor with awesome screen presence.

But by the same token Roger Moore will always be the definitive Simon Templer aka The Saint. I think this is the fundamental flaw with the casting of Mr. Moore, who was primarily a television actor, as Bond. Physically Roger Moore looks much better on the "small" screen than he does on the more expansive larger one. If anything the "Moore" Bond proved that it takes much more than a polished, well-tailored English gentleman to convincingly portray James Bond.

Has anyone actually purchased the recent THE SAINT (Syndicated 1962-66, NBC 1967-69) DVD box set? If so, then just how many episodes are minted per disc?

There are supposed to be 33 discs to this complete series box set which should amply translate to 4 hour long episodes per discs (which is the proper maximum to house the series).

Jeff T.

Jeff:

I own the complete series release from Shout/Timeless and the discs range between 3 to 4 episodes per disc (never more than 4).

Darby

 

[GMBurns]

I never enjoyed Roger Moore as 007; he was too smarmy, and too far removed from the literary character that Ian Fleming had created. But the charm and smarm work perfectly in this series and I love Roger Moore as the Saint. The set from Timeless is great and I've had a blast watching it.