Survivor: Fiji (1 Viewer)

[MikeM]

Imagine the shame in being the first person voted off THAT season.

 

[Matt_Vaudrin]

I wonder how many first outs would actually want to come back?

 

[ChristopherG]

Brilliant!!

 

[ChristopherG]

I hear what you are saying, but in real life I'm pretty sure Dreamz is still a douche bag. Just look at his continued charade in the reunion show - "oh, I was playing Yao-man all along". That's pure BS and there was no reason to continue it other than that which I have clearly stated above. The "game" at that point was over.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> I am of the thinking that Dreamz can't really be faulted for the decision he made -- I would really blame Yau Man for creating the situation in the first place.

Yeah, instead of blaming the liar who didn't keep his word, let's blame the kind, generous man who gave away a vehicle worth probably about a year's salary to him.

 

[Stephen_L]

I was really disappointed by Dreamz betrayal of Yao Man, but what infuriates me is his lame, unconvincing explanation of events. It's clear from the show and solo interviews that he talks a good game of being a stong, forthright, honest guy with values he wants to transmit to his son. In the end his values were weak and couldn't hold up to the promise of a big payday. Add the utter stupidity of thinking he had a prayer at a million when he betrayed everyone and you've got a pretty lame guy. Then to come back and pretend he was some devious genius all along is a comical attempt at self-justification.

Yao-Man made only one mistake. He made a contract that involved the other member of the contract commiting game 'suicide'. That's asking a lot of anyone. I wish he had taken Dreamz aside, said he trusted him to hold to his promise, but didn't expect him to commit suicide. If he and Dreamz voted for Cassandra (or even Earl) the worst they would get was a tie, and Dreamz could have a fair chance of surviving to the final round. He keeps his word and doesn't fall on his sword to do it.

I'm intrigued by the folks that believe no holds are barred in Survivor if its "only a game". This is an interesting moral question. Why should no holds be barred to win? Is it the stakes? Would you violate your moral code for a big pot? Can you violate your moral code because your dealing with strangers (wouldn't a game of Survivor with just friends or family be interesting)? Would you violate your moral code because the game allows you to do so without consequences? (Then would you cheat at board games?) I guess I feel there's a certain moral code you should maintain even in the context of an artificial competition like this. It doesn't mean you don't make little compromises, but you keep big promises. It even makes sense for game success. Folks who break big promises or betray friends usually face the wrath of the jury and lose anyway. I don't mind snakes (folks who lie and manipulate but make clear to everyone that they're gaming and not making genuine promises) but I hate rats (folks who make sincere promises, friends or alliances then betray them)

 

[alan halvorson]

I would have added one condition to Yau-Man's deal: that Yau-Man would not vote for Dreamz. May not made any difference but it might have.

 

[MikeM]

I see Survivor as a game of Poker. Lying is part of the game. It's virtually impossible to play Survivor effectively and not lie, cheat or manipulate at any given time. I don't see any board game or other game the same way.

That said, I actually wouldn't have a problem with Dreamz if he confessed to the cameras from the very start that he never intended to follow through with his deal (and intended to give back the truck.) If it was part of a plan, a decisive plan from the start to win immunity in the final four and make a deal that would have Yau protect him to keep him along in the voting of the final 6 and final 5, I can write off much of my disgust with him as his strategy. I mean, let's not forget that Dreamz tried to get Yau voted off even BEFORE the final four. So it's not like backstabbing isn't understood as part of the game. But the way he did it shows he had no plan. He wanted to be honest and trustworthy and in the end he ended up lying to everyone, including himself.

 

[Stephen_L]

Mike, lying is one way to play the game, but not the only one. There are also vastly different levels of lying in any game or in life. If I'm in the Survivor game and another contestant asks me my strategy to win, or if I have the immunity idol then I'd lie. However if I make a real friendship or connection with someone, if we share confidences, and make promises to one another and if in the case of Yau-Man they've proven themselves true to their end of the deal, I'm not sure I could morally lie and betray them to advance myself. I'm not a poker player but I know there's a difference between bluffing and cheating (trick deck, hidden cards). One is expected the other is not.

 

[LarryDavenport]

I think more than half (you could fill the show moving up the food chain).

Some candidates that come to mind for SURVIVOR: ALL LOSERS (and I'm just day dreaming here because it is 78 degrees and sunny in Seattle and I am stuck in my windowless cube for 2.75 more hours):

Season 1: Stacey Stillman (3rd Out) wouldn't happen because she sued the show.

Season 2: Debb Eaton, who seemed to have a nervous breakdown on the reunion show. Kel Gleason (2nd Out) whom Jerry accused of smuggling in beef jerkey.

Season 3: Clarence Black (7th Out), the infamous bean eater.

Season 4: Hunter Ellis (3rd Out), who many thought could actually win Survivor.

Season 5: Shii Ann Huang (7th Out), who jumped tribes when she mistakenly thought there was a merge.

Season 6: Nicole Delma (1st Out) for backstabbing from day 1 (unanimously voted out).

Season 7: Burton Roberts (4th and 13th Out) who convinced his tribe to throw the immunity challenge to get rid of dead weight. The tribe lost four consecutive immunity challenges (and Rupert to the other team). He was also the only Survivor to be voted out twice in one season.

Season 8:ALL STARS (Hell, put Jerri Manthey on the show a third time. She'll either be first to go or win the whole thing. She's been the bad girl and tried to be the good girl. I am curious as to how she would play the game this time).

Season 9-13: I confess I did not watch these seasons

Season 14: only watched the last 5 episodes.

I think my lack of interest of seasons 9-14 was burnout (similar to watching the Real World, which I stopped watching whatever season was after Seattle) and because of the NBC comedy block and Smallville being on at the same time.

I do plan on watching the one in China on Comcast On Demand.

 

[phil-w]

They picked a heck of a time to move the show to China, since I hear the next season will be in HD. Will there be bikini's in China?

 

[Hanson]

I would hardly say a former homeless person who isn't exactly well off "floated through life".

That said, say you were a loan officer. Let's say you knew Dreamz for even 10 minutes. If you offered him a loan and he defaulted, who's the fall guy here -- you or Dreamz? I'm not saying Dreamz should be absolved of all blame (it is his responsbility to pay it back), but if you put any faith in Dreamz following through on that promise, you're a fool.

 

[Mike Frezon]

One of the questions we've been wrestling with in our household is "why does Dreamz' promise seem so different from all the other broken promises in Survivor history?" I believe it is because it involved something so tangible...a $60,000 truck! And that tangible truck makes the promise of possession of the immunity necklace all the more tangible--not quite as ethereal as Rob's promise to Lex to "take care of him" if he'd watch out for Amber (during All-Stars).

This now begs the question should a promise (or deal) involving a material thing be more important than a deal struck over an abstract idea? That's an issue for another day. But I think it is the matter of the truck which has put the bright spotlight on this particular broken promise.

==============================

I also think the "it's only a game" defense is tenuous.

My understanding is that Earl played the game pretty square (please remind me if I'm wrong. it's admittedly hard for me to remember every twist and turn of a season. I'm sometimes amazed at the reunion show discussions of particular plot twists.). I don't think Earl & Yau had a pact to never write down each other's name. And, as Earl explained, he did it because when they got down to final four it was ech man for himself and he knew he couldn't win with Yau at his side.

This just goes to show that playing with an alliance has proven to be an effective tool...but not one that needs to involve deception to be successful.

 

[TonyD]

in retrospect it looks like yau made a bad plan with the car thing.
but wouldnt he have been the next one out anyway?
(when there was only 4 left)
he made a deal to try an keep himself in the game one extra round.
so if it worked, he's in an extra round, if not he was out anyway.

i watch every ep but dont keep all the details in my head the way some do.
so tell me if i missed something

 

[AnthonyC]

I'm not sure what you mean. Yau-man made the deal at the final six. He won immunity at the final five, and thus he and Dreamz made it to the final four, where Dreamz didn't keep his part of the deal.

Personally, I'd be a little more accepting of the "It's just a game" defense if Dreamz didn't constantly reiterate the fact that he wanted to make sure his son saw he was a man of honor. I don't even care that he changed his mind, but to build himself up as such a respectable person and then to "suddenly" decide to keep immunity is really low.

Sure, he'll get a spot on All Stars and probably get to the merge as a strong challenge player...but nobody will trust a word he says.

 

[Mike Frezon]

The way I see it, Tony:

If Yau had won immunity, the final three would have been Yau, Earl & Cassandra (with Yau the sole survivor).

Frankly, I'm surprised no one has asked Yau if he might have given up on that final challenge thinking that he had it wrapped-up with Dreamz' promise of immunity. I thought that was a challenge made for Yau.

If Earl or Cassandra had won immunity, I had been thinking that Yau would have been with Earl & Cassandra in the final three...but maybe that's my naivete. Now I'm thinking Earl might have convinced the others to vote off Yau or else none of them would have a chance.

BTW, I'm with you...I have a real hard time remembering all the plot turns...

 

[Hanson]

I think I understand TonyD's logic -- if Yau hadn't made the deal, he would have been voted out anyway at the final four (being easily the most popular player). So the deal gave him the best chance to make it to the final three barring winning the IC at that juncture. So it was a good, strategic move for Yau after all.

I think one thing that's being lost in the discussion is that by the time taping started for Fiji, Cook Islands hadn't yet finished airing, which meant that the final three was a huge twist for the players even though the viewers knew it was coming. So in Dreamz defense, he was giving up a lot more than he bargained for. Plus, Yau's error was to expect Dreamz to hand over immunity and get voted off. He really should have made a deal with Dreamz to vote off Cassandra -- that way, Dreamz gets to stay in the game and save face, which is something he may have gone for (don't ask him now -- he'll deny he ever changed his mind).

And I am firmly of the opinion that you do what you have to do to win the game. This isn't real life -- in real life, the top two or three would make a deal to split their earnings. Since that isn't allowed in Survivor, players will conduct themselves differently than in real life. I think the jury is ultimately the one to decide if you went too far and it's the one thing that keeps their actions in check. To me, that's the sum total of expected morality in the game. Because it's a game.

 

[MikeM]

Who cheated? There was no cheating that took place in Survivor, otherwise the player would have been ejected from the game. So I don't see your connection there at all.

My analogy with poker is that part of the time you're playing your cards, part of the time you're playing the other player. You can lie in all sorts of levels of poker and Survivor and it's part of the game. In poker you can tell players that folded their hands that you had a pair, a flush, etc. when you really didn't. You can say awful things to get them angry so that they aren't focused just to get inside their heads. It's part of the game in poker and it's also part of the game in Survivor. However, even in poker, if you made a side bet (which Dreamz did) that everyone hears and you verbally agree to, that bet is binding. That's why I said I wouldn't be so disgusted with Dreamz if he gave the truck back and backed out of the bet. Just backing out of the best would still be a sleezy thing to do, especially since we all know from his confessionals that he had every intention of giving up immunity, but to not give it up AND keep the truck? That's beyond low.

 

[Radioman970]

I agree that it shouldn't be no holds barred. Dreamz would then have to give Yau-man back his truck since the deal fell through. But instead it IS a game and Dreamz now has a freakishly massive fuel-eating machine plus a far amount of greenbacks. Yau-man looked to come to terms with the bad deal quite fast. He's a good man. How many of us would have this bad deal eating at them til the end of your days? *raises hand* Hopefully it'll eat at Dreamz and he'll call Yau-man up one day and tell him to come pick up his FORD tank.

 

[Radioman970]

Dreamz constantly jumped back and forth in the game. That was his method until the end. It wasn't totally surprising that he kept the one thing he felt might give him 1,000,000 reasons to remain a cheerleader after the game was over. It was obviously a tough decision for him. Or he put up one hell of a great act with his eyes watering and hiding his face. He should win a Oscar for that performance if that's what it was.

Now, I feel like I'm taking up for Dreamz on this thread, but I must say I most likely wouldn't play the game the same way he did and put myself in that situation. But, if I had a chance to walk away with nothing or win a million dollar I'd go for the million...AND I'd say sorry to Yau-man and hand him the damn keys to his truck. My final words on the deal would be "Yau-man, you're a great man, and a smart player, and I'll buy you a beer when this is over if I win. I hope you'll do the same." It's amazing that the one guy who was done in by this crappy deal is the one who won't hold a grudge. Now, if only Dreamz had made a big production out of giving the truck back people wouldn't hate him as much. Now he just has a truck he'll have to use his winnings to buy the gas for. Karma?