Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!) (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

I don’t feel that I’m qualified to judge the intentions behind how the films turned out. Call me cynical, but I think the only overriding goal with these films was to hit predetermined release dates, and anything and everything that got in the way of that got screwed.

But Boyega is absolutely correct that the characters of Finn and Rose were massively shortchanged in the last film. I don’t understand why of the people on the resistance camp planet, that a new character (the hobbit) was introduced to provide all exposition when an existing character (Rose) could have done the same. I don’t understand why they had Finn encounter other Stormtrooper deserters and then didn’t pay that off in a meaningful way in the final battle - it seemed as if it could have built to a moment for Finn to persuade the stormtroopers to lay down their arms, instead of bringing in a thousand CGI ships we had no emotional connection with to save the day.

Abrams set up so much potential in his first installment but then spent his last one introducing new characters and storylines instead of paying off the ones he started years earlier.

It strikes me as lazy and rushed writing more than anything.

 

[TravisR]

I don’t feel that I’m qualified to judge the intentions behind how the films turned out. Call me cynical, but I think the only overriding goal with these films was to hit predetermined release dates, and anything and everything that got in the way of that got screwed.

But Boyega is absolutely correct that the characters of Finn and Rose were massively shortchanged in the last film. I don’t understand why of the people on the resistance camp planet, that a new character (the hobbit) was introduced to provide all exposition when an existing character (Rose) could have done the same. I don’t understand why they had Finn encounter other Stormtrooper deserters and then didn’t pay that off in a meaningful way in the final battle - it seemed as if it could have built to a moment for Finn to persuade the stormtroopers to lay down their arms, instead of bringing in a thousand CGI ships we had no emotional connection with to save the day.

Abrams set up so much potential in his first installment but then spent his last one introducing new characters and storylines instead of paying off the ones he started years earlier.

It strikes me as lazy and rushed writing more than anything.

No doubt that Disney was scared by the reaction to The Last Jedi and catered to the racists and/or misogynists and benched Kelly Marie Tran for the third movie. There's no other reasonable explanation for that. As for Finn, I don't see him or anyone being able to persuade an army that has been indoctrinated from childhood to rebel against the First Order. It's a nice idea and works with Finn having renounced them but they went with the normal Star Wars thing of "blow this up and win the battle". I think it's worth noting that FInn was key in destroying the First Order and that's about all that anyone (except the main characters) gets in a Star Wars movie. In the end, Disney wanted to deliver what they thought the audience wanted (especially after TLJ took chances and some fans lost their minds) so they played it safe and backed off of TLJ as much as possible and went back to basics. That's what they wanted, that's what they got.

That being said, I have to give it to John Boyega for speaking publicly about this because bad mouthing Disney is potentially career damaging for him.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I agree Travis - and I’m not saying my idea is brilliant, but I just wasn’t that interested in any of the new characters. The film already had the built in expectation of resolving the new trilogy, and then they added an extra expectation that it would serve as a finale to the numbered films, something outside of the aspirations of the previous two. My point is, they had so many great existing characters played by great actors, with so many potential story threads to choose from, and they spent more time with new characters and detours that didn’t add much and neglected what they already had on hand. I grow more disappointed with it each time I see it.

 

[Tom-G]

No doubt that Disney was scared by the reaction to The Last Jedi and catered to the racists and/or misogynists and benched Kelly Marie Tran for the third movie. There's no other reasonable explanation for that.

This talk of racism and misogyny is nothing but rubbish when it comes to the dislike of Rose Tico. I loathed The Last Jedi and the race of the actors had zero to do with that. It had everything to do with the film and the characters being poorly written. It's entirely possible, or even likely, that Abrams and Terrio were simply unable to write a bigger role for Rose Tico. I reject the notion that it had anything to do with "catering to racists." In fact, the only instance I can think of where Disney "catered to racists" was possibly when Disney de-emphasized John Boyega's character on the marketing materials for China.

‘Star Wars’ China Poster Sparks Controversy After Shrinking John Boyega’s Character

 

[Ronald Epstein]

This talk of racism and misogyny is nothing but rubbish when it comes to the dislike of Rose Tico. I loathed The Last Jedi and the race of the actors had zero to do with that. It had everything to do with the film and the characters being poorly written. It's entirely possible, or even likely, that Abrams and Terrio were simply unable to write a bigger role for Rose Tico. I reject the notion that it had anything to do with "catering to racists." In fact, the only instance I can think of where Disney "catered to racists" was possibly when Disney de-emphasized John Boyega's character on the marketing materials for China.

‘Star Wars’ China Poster Sparks Controversy After Shrinking John Boyega’s Character

The character of Rose is the second-worst in the Star Wars Universe next to JarJar, in my opinion.

Nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with her race.

She was just a poorly conceived character. I hated every minute of her character on screen. She just seemed very negative in every aspect.

 

[TravisR]

I agree Travis - and I’m not saying my idea is brilliant, but I just wasn’t that interested in any of the new characters.

That seems to be the 'alternate' story that everyone brings up (maybe it was in Trevorrow's script?) but it is a logical story thread to have given the character. It was like they brought in Jannah and the stormtroopers that defected to quickly touch on that idea and then just as quickly move on.

My point is, they had so many great existing characters played by great actors, with so many potential story threads to choose from, and they spent more time with new characters and detours that didn’t add much and neglected what they already had on hand.

I think since they correctly wanted the focus of the movie to be on Rey and Kylo Ren that alot of that was just wanting to give the rest of the actors their own small story. With Zorii Bliss (Keri Russell), they wanted to give Poe some backstory. Since Poe got backstory, they couldn't do the same with Finn so they went with the group of defected stormtroopers quickie story. A character like Beaumont (Dominic Monaghan) just delivered some exposition that Rose could have given but she was sidelined. As an aside, I think Beaumont must be named after Twilight Zone writer Charles Beaumont since J.J. Abrams is a big TZ fan.


For what it's worth, most of the stories covering Boyega's quotes just use the splashiest ones and don't bother to mention that he does defend J.J. Abrams by saying “Everybody needs to leave my boy alone. He wasn’t even supposed to come back and try to save your shit”. That plays into my idea that Abrams was told to meet certain criteria (drop Rose Tico, stay away from TLJ as much as possible) and he did the best he could given the situation.


Unrelated but I think my biggest disappointment with TROS is that they never followed up on Luke's "Seeya around, kid" threat to Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ. Ren could have even seen him at the beginning of the movie when he was locating the Sith wayfinder or before he met the Emperor. If Luke was 'haunting' Kylo Ren, it would have played nicely against the scene where he sees Han Solo and it's a moment of love and compassion. That would make Luke a little dark and once again, I think they wanted to move away from that take on the character since TLJ made some people lost their minds over the best SW movie since The Empire Strikes Back.

This talk of racism and misogyny is nothing but rubbish when it comes to the dislike of Rose Tico. I loathed The Last Jedi and the race of the actors had zero to do with that. It had everything to do with the film and the characters being poorly written. It's entirely possible, or even likely, that Abrams and Terrio were simply unable to write a bigger role for Rose Tico. I reject the notion that it had anything to do with "catering to racists." In fact, the only instance I can think of where Disney "catered to racists" was possibly when Disney de-emphasized John Boyega's character on the marketing materials for China.

‘Star Wars’ China Poster Sparks Controversy After Shrinking John Boyega’s Character

There are plenty of people who didn't like Finn, Rose or Rey based on the merits of the characters but there's no way that racism and/or sexism wasn't an issue for some people too. I've seen way too many racist or sexist insults hurled at all those actors to think that it wasn't part of it for some people. Since Rose was probably the biggest complaint from TLJ that could be "fixed" (they couldn't bring Luke back to life), I feel it's very fair to say that Disney catered to racists by sidelining the character.

 

[Tom-G]

The character of Rose is the second-worst in the Star Wars Universe next to JarJar, in my opinion.

Nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with her race.

She was just a poorly conceived character. I hated every minute of her character on screen. She just seemed very negative in every aspect.

That's where I rank her as well -- second worst behind Jar Jar although it's close as to who I disliked more, her or DJ (Benicio Del Toro's campy character). Before TLJ was released, I read an article about Kelly Marie Tran and she seems like a very nice, humble individual so I was anxious to see her character's role. It was a huge letdown and had nothing to do with her. In fact, I didn't like any of the new characters and blame that solely on the writing. Disney made some very good choices with the casting, e.g. Adam Driver, John Boyega, Dasiy Ridley and Oscar Isaac, but Disney made very poor choices on the narratives for the entire trilogy. Again, not the fault of the actors at all. It's all on Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson and the writers.

 

[Tom-G]

I've seen way too many racist or sexist insults hurled at all those actors to think that it wasn't part of it for some people. Since it was probably the biggest complaint from TLJ that could be "fixed" (they couldn't bring Luke back to life), I feel it's very fair to say that Disney catered to racists by sidelining the character.

Where are these racist and sexist insults? Can you link to some of them, please? I would also need some evidence of Disney's move to cater to these racists.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

That's where I rank her as well -- second worst behind Jar Jar although it's close as to who I disliked more, her or DJ (Benicio Del Toro's campy character). Before TLJ was released, I read an article about Kelly Marie Tran and she seems like a very nice, humble individual so I was anxious to see her character's role. It was a huge letdown and had nothing to do with her. In fact, I didn't like any of the new characters and blame that solely on the writing. Disney made some very good choices with the casting, e.g. Adam Driver, John Boyega, Dasiy Ridley and Oscar Isaac, but Disney made very poor choices on the narratives for the entire trilogy. Again, not the fault of the actors at all. It's all on Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson and the writers.

Yeah, good point about Benicio Del Toro. He was a mumbling/stuttering mess in that film.

It does seem that Kelly Marie Tran is a very nice person. No doubt about that.

I haven't seen TLJ in some time and I doubt I will ever watch it again in my lifetime. I am pulling this from memory...

The problem with her character is that from the moment we meet her she is brooding and just continues in that mode. She lost her sister. She is crying. There was a very phony transition from that crying to stopping Flynn from getting to the ship to all of a sudden coming into agreement with him to the point of finishing their ideas vocally together. Just a very unnatural transition. I blame it on the writing.


Every scene she is in it seems like she's just negatively affecting what everyone else wants to do. She's the constant eye-rolling opposition. I also don't like the fact they took this very pretty woman and made her look like a little chipmunk.

Sorry, I am just really down on that film for so many reasons but her character just annoyed me in a huge way and I was rather disturbed after the film that so many Asian-Americans were blaming the negativity on racism. I don't think that was the case at all. She was just an unsubstantial creation in the Star Wars universe. It also seemed like they just needed to throw a diverse character into some role. In other words, she came across more of a "token" character than something that thought was really put into.

 

[TravisR]

Where are these racist and sexist insults? Can you link to some of them, please? I would also need some evidence of Disney's move to cater to these racists.

I'd direct you to Kelly Marie Tran's Instagram but she deleted her pictures due to 'fans' harassing her. As an alternative, you can look at Twitter and see the cesspool of humanity there. Of course, I have no evidence that Disney catered to racists but Disney cut out the kiss between two women out of TROS for release in China so if they'll cater to the homophobic standards of Chinese censors, I think that shows a precedent.

To be more clear, I don't think Disney actively thought "Gee, how can we win racists back to the SW fold?" but by benching the Rose character, they still ended up catering to the people that hated the characters and actors based on their race or gender. Do you honestly think that Boyega or Tran's race wasn't an issue for some people?

 

[Carlo_M]

Oh wow, I'm really torn here. Without getting into the politics side of things, my personal beliefs lean ***very*** heavy towards equity, inclusion, and fairness.

On the other hand (and I'm Asian/Pacific Islander just FYI) I really disliked the Rose character for reasons that have nothing to do with race, gender or Ms. Tran, and all about the character's poor development, dialogue and arc.

So I hope that Disney didn't sideline that character to "avoid pissing off a certain segment of the pop" and did it more because it wasn't a good character (imho).

Not developing Finn more was a missed opportunity.

 

[SamT]

Poor Rose. Never understood why people hate her. I dislike the whole movie (The Last Jedi) but I'm not focused on one character. She is fine compared to all the other characters in The Last Jedi. She is not worse or better than Luke, Leia, Rey or anyone else in that movie.

 

[SamT]

Duplicate. Delete!

 

[Tommy R]

I really liked the Rose character in TLJ, and was disappointed in her reduced involvement in TROS. Though I understand if other didn’t care for her. Finn on the other hand I always found lame. A storm trooper with a conscience turning to the resistance is an interesting idea, but I can’t stand the way he acts in these from the start. May be able to blame J.J. if he was directing him as such.

I liked the Poe overall and thought he was being given more screen time and stuff to do as the movies went on, which I was happy with. And isn’t Oscar Isaac of South American decent?

 

[TravisR]

And isn’t Oscar Isaac of South American decent?

Looking at Wikipedia, he was born in Guatemala and his family moved to Miami, Florida when he was 5 months old.

 

[Cranston37+]

And people are complaining that Daniel Craig is being sidelined as James Bond in favor of the new black and female Double-O.

Kind of hard to hold both positions at the same time, no?

 

[Wayne_j]

Daisy Ridley revealed that Rey was originally supposed to be a Kenobi, then she was supposed to be nothing, then they told her that she might be a palpatine, she had no idea who she was going to be even while shooting The Rise of Skywalker.

Daisy Ridley Reveals Original Rey Kenobi Plot in ‘Star Wars’

Daisy Ridley says her 'Star Wars' character of Rey was going to originally be a descendant of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Carlo_M]

I mean, that's not unprecedented in SW lore right? Luke and Leia were never meant to be siblings...until they were.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I mean, that's not unprecedented in SW lore right? Luke and Leia were never meant to be siblings...until they were.

That’s absolutely correct. And Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker weren’t the same person until after several Empire Strikes Backs drafts were completed.

 

[TravisR]

Daisy Ridley revealed that Rey was originally supposed to be a Kenobi, then she was supposed to be nothing, then they told her that she might be a palpatine, she had no idea who she was going to be even while shooting The Rise of Skywalker.

Daisy Ridley Reveals Original Rey Kenobi Plot in ‘Star Wars’

Daisy Ridley says her 'Star Wars' character of Rey was going to originally be a descendant of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Personally, I'm very much onboard with The Last Jedi's establishing that she's no one. It shows that even someone "from nowhere" can do something great and change the galaxy which is a very Star Wars idea. That being said, her being a Palpatine shows that people's choices and actions (not their bloodline) dictate whether they are a good or bad person and that's also a very Star Wars idea.

Having her be Obi-Wan's granddaughter doesn't seem to do much other than set up future stories and characters.

That’s absolutely correct. And Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker weren’t the same person until after several Empire Strikes Backs drafts were completed.

Slightly related, I saw someone on Twitter point out that the last thing Obi-Wan sees before he dies is Luke and Leia reunited. Obviously, that's a coincidence since they didn't know that when they made the original movie but it's still pretty neat.