HSU Subs and Distortion (1 Viewer)

[Panther_B]

I'd also like to thank Ed and Craig for their time and for their reviews. I've read, re-read, and re-re-read them many times. Each of their reviews have helped me a lot. IMHO, they should be an inspiration to other reviewers.

I agree that listening is important; that's the whole point of the audio system. But listen to what? I could listen to the recording as it was meant to be heard. Or I could listen to the version of the recording that my distorted components force me to listen to (although sometimes that distortion can be nice - i.e. dull speakers with bright recordings).

For me accuracy is the goal. Since accuracy is my goal, telling me to just listen isn't enough. Without measuring, there's no way to tell if that loud bass note is part of the recording, distortion coming from my sub, a room node, or whatever.

For me, the best system = the most accurate system. How do you find the most accurate system? By measuring.

But I understand that these are just my views, and everyone doesn't have to agree or even like them.

Later,
B

 

[Brian L]

As a sort of side take on this discussion, the current Home Theater Magazine has a shoot-out invloving several 5.1 speaker systems that are in the $3,000 range. They include B&W, PSB, Plase Linear, and a couple others.

The review consists of actual measurements of each loudspeaker (sub included), as well as a round of subjective listenning tests handled be the staff of the magazine.

Here's the point...

Looking at the graphs, most of the so called subs, measure horribly, and barely extend the low end range of the main speakers in their sets. The response curves look like the side view of one of Madonna's Bra cups from the early '90's.

On the other hand, the PSB has true, flat low end extension, with a -3db point of around 25 Hertz, and a -6dB point even lower. This is a REAL sub and it dovetails perfectly with the mains in the set.

Guess which of the speakers set was said to have the weakest low end? Yup, the PSB. WTF????? Either their is something fundamentally wrong with their room, or the sub they measured was not the same sub that used in the subjective tests.

I fall into the camp thats says their is nothing magic or mythical about a sub. Its measurements, if you are measuring the right things, will ALWAYS tell you what you need to know.

BGL

 

[MikeDuke]

Again I agree with what is being said. But when I had my DEFTECH powefield 15 sub I thought is was a good sub. Then I got my JM Lab SW900. Without taking any measurements for frequency response or distortion I could tell there was a difference. The DEFTECH would just play loudly and be one notey. On certain movie scenes their was an audible difference. Sound tracks sounded cleaner to me with the 900. I could tell the difference between the sound track and bullets in The Matrix now when before it was all just one big mess. Like I said before "I" think measurements should be used as baseline. And I do think that being accurate has its merits. So we can know if what we are hearing is what we think we are really hearing

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Guess which of the speakers set was said to have the weakest low end? Yup, the PSB. WTF????? Either their is something fundamentally wrong with their room, or the sub they measured was not the same sub that used in the subjective tests.

 

[BruceD]

Correct, you noticed a difference. That doesn't tell you which one is actually more accurate, that's the point we are all trying to make.

As Tom said, it depends on your preferences as to what you like, that doesn't mean what you like is more accurate. In fact the quoted review may show just the opposite.

So, again, without measurements you are flying blind, but that is certainly your perogative.

I don't think measurements are just baseline info, I think they are absolutely critical to selecting a good sub.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Yup. The less you understand, the more you decry the value of the "numbers".

 

[MikeDuke]

I can't even drive a stick shift let alone fly . It is impossible to listen to every single possible sub that it out there that we may be considering. And I do believe that measurements are an important factor. It is true that what I like may not be more accurate. Also distortion and compression measurements, which I will freely admit to having a limited understanding on how to measure them, can tell you something about how a sub can perform. I did not mean to imply that I thought measurments had no value.

 

[Peter Marcks]

Greetings Tom,

Perhaps one even more glaring error on this list is the fact that the TN1225HO that was tested by Mr. Nousaine was not a production model. This was a hand-built prototype that still had some significant driver issues to iron out before it went into production. This was a radically new and powerful design for Dr. Hsu, and it took some time to perfect it before it went into production. Achieving such prodigous bass output in such little floorspace is certainly no easy task.

With respect to testing, even the smallest deficiency can significantly skew results and measurements, especially in a bass torture test that Tom Nousaine puts subwoofers through.

There are some clear signs that the TN1225HO unit that Tom Nousaine tested was not up to production level. One of these is the frequency response. Mr. Nousaine measured a frequency response in-room of 30Hz using a +/-2.6db window. Now, everyone familiar with Dr. Hsu's works will acknowledge that his products consistently meet and exceed the stated frequency response specifications, and the TN1225HO is no exception. Actual in-room frequency response should have been closer to +/-1db at 25Hz for the production model. Lo and behold, the production ready VTF-2 that Mr. Nousaine tested did have frequency response down to 25Hz in-room.

Some other signs that all was not right with the prototype are evident through subsequent comparison to VTF-2 data. The VTF-2 revolutioned the value box subwoofer industry no doubt, but it could not compare to the TN1225HO in performance. The TN1225HO in reality had a tighter frequency response, cleaner sound, and much higher clean output capability over it's entire operating range.

Looking at the data, a keen observer will notice that the TN1225HO with 150 watt amp had a clean (in this case, meaning

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Greetings Tom,

Perhaps one even more glaring error on this list is the fact that the TN1225HO that was tested by Mr. Nousaine was not a production model.

 

[Peter Marcks]

The TN1225HO tested by Tom Nousaine was not a production ready model. This surely cannot be said about the other products on the list.

At Hsu Research, we believe that data should be published as is, but at the same time should be properly explained so that casual observers do not misinterpret or misunderstand the data.

I challenge anyone here to dig up an old production ready TN1225HO using either our 150 watt or 250 watt amp, and show me that our old VTF-2 in any way has higher clean undistorted output over the common 25-62Hz operating range than our TN1225HO, especially using 25Hz extension mode. I also challenge anyone here to show that our old VTF-2 had lower useable frequency response extension than our old production ready TN1225HO.

There is approximately nil chance that this person will be successful.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

What is the difference if you call it "non production" or not? The end to the mean is you are claiming your current product would perform better than the published data. We can say "running changes, improvements, upgrades, non production, pre production, post-whatever"...that is just debating verbiage. The end result is the same(claiming better performance than published)...and dozens of subwoofers Nousaine has tested would very likely perform better(or at least differently) by the time the review is published. Just a fact of life in the industry.

The servo15 has been upgraded a few times, why isn't that one jacked way up on the list too? How about the SVS? BW made running changes to the ASW series, Velodyne did upgrades to the SPL line, ect,ect,ect,. If we gave the rest of the manufacturers Tom Nousaine has reviewed the same *considerations*...we would likely find the entire list would need to be jacked up a bit. That would be the only fair thing to do. Just increase them all 3dB? 4, 5? do I hear 6...

Tom V.
SVS

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

I also just read a review in the newest Stereophile in which Kal Rubinson declared the Paradigm Studio 60 V.3 is the BEST speaker available for $1600. Not one of the best, THE best. The review STARTS with Kal declaring his bias towards and for Paradigm. I like Kal's writing style, but I don't think Fox News will be hiring him.
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Hi, Craig!

You know, ever since this audio rag managed to get rid of Gordon Holt their one most pathetic, glaring flaw is lack of intellectual honesty, so it should come of no surprise that their audio "reviewers" continue on spewing such stupidity.

By the way...we are all definitely better off by not having Fox News hire charlatans of Kal's stature...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Brian L]

Well, I have not read this particular piece, but in his defense, Kal is one of the reasons I actually recently subscribed to Stereophile (along with their coverage of digital music players, iPods, etc.).

I enjoy his MC music column greatly, and he was right on the money last year when he addressed the fact that BM in most uni-players is abysmal, and further identified that the ICBM is absolutely critical to hearing what hi-rez MC can really sound like with most of those players. He also had a column on center channel use that was spot on too.

Now, he is no EdwardJM, Tom Nousaine, or Keith Yates when it comes to subs, but on balance, I would give him a pass on this one in return for his other good work promoting MC music in a hi-end rag. He posts frequently over at Secrets forum and AVS, and is an overall pleasant guy to have join a thread.

Now, just don't get me started on the other idiot at Stereophile that championed the $50 AC outlet a while back!

BGL

 

[Peter Marcks]

Good day Tom,

There is a key and obvious difference between a specific model version tested that never actually made it to production, versus a specific model version tested that did make it into production but was later upgraded or replaced by a new model. The difference is that the first type of product is not considered a viable consumer product. In other words, it is not a model rev that made it into the hands of consumers, so there is no realistic basis for data comparison.

An owner of the original VTF-2 would be able to properly compare data collected by Mr. Nousaine versus data collected on, say, Outlaw's fine LFM-1 assuming it was production ready when tested. However, the same cannot be said about the owner of the original TN1225HO.

So, again, we at Hsu Research do not advocate changing or erasing data that is already measured. Our goal is to make sure that individuals do not misinterpret or misunderstand the data that is presented on our products. We have done many measurements ourselves on many different products, and believe very strongly in our methods and our findings, but we also realize that it is important for consumers to see and comprehend impartial third party data from acclaimed reviewers at the same time.

Cheers

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

Now, just don't get me started on the other idiot at Stereophile that championed the $50 AC outlet a while back!
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...and yet even more stupid...like advocating the smearing of Armor-All on music CDs back in the 80's! (which would yield the same effect if we were to wash our eyes with battery acid! )...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."