Podcast Home Theater United Episode 13 - All about amps with special guest John Rice from HomeTheaterForum (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

Something tells me this will be a topic worth revisiting in the future.

Now, more importantly, let's all compare amp weights. My Outlaw 7-channel weighs approximately 100 pounds.

Of course, if you want to go about it that way, the XPA-DR1 weighs 35.5 lbs, so for 7 channels that would be 248.5 lbs.

I used to take a lot of pride in heavy amps. Now I just think they're a royal pain to move around.

 

[JohnRice]

My D-Sonic M3a-1200S (800WPC into 8 ohms weighs in at a svelte 22Lbs and is barely warm to the touch, even with my 4 ohm speakers driven to reference levels. I really do believe Class D is the future for high end audio.

I have felt that way as well. I was skeptical of other new designs like Class H. Now that I've personally discovered what it can do, I have to include it in the "future for high end audio" as well. Theoretically, Class D has the potential for the highest performance, but it's more difficult to implement. Class H is easier to implement, but isn't capable of the same theoretical performance. I suspect it's a bit of a trade in the end. 50lb toroidal transformers are simply going to be left behind for all but the purist and most resistant to progress. We're in something of a revolution.

 

[John Dirk]

I used to take a lot of pride in heavy amps. Now I just think they're a royal pain to move around.

...And also prohibitively expensive to ship in many cases.

 

[Sam Posten]

Hey @Sam Posten, so wouldn't something like this be useful? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

No. It:
Doesn't do 4k 120hz
Doesn't do VRR
Doesn't do HDMI 2.1

And I suspect that the HDCP handshaking it does do is sketchy.

Also, it's a splitter. It takes 1 input and outputs to 4. What we need is a fully HDMI 2.1 / VRR / 4K120 input -selector-. If you have both a PS5 and Xbox Series X right now and a 2020 Receiver you can only have 1 device that is 4K120 but the DUMBASSES allow you to send it to two different devices. It's exactly the opposite of what gamers need. We need 2 inputs with those capabilities to go to 1 kick ass panel.

 

[Brian Dobbs]

No. It:
Doesn't do 4k 120hz
Doesn't do VRR
Doesn't do HDMI 2.1

And I suspect that the HDCP handshaking it does do is sketchy.

Also, it's a splitter. It takes 1 input and outputs to 4. What we need is a fully HDMI 2.1 / VRR / 4K120 input -selector-. If you have both a PS5 and Xbox Series X right now and a 2020 Receiver you can only have 1 device that is 4K120 but the DUMBASSES allow you to send it to two different devices. It's exactly the opposite of what gamers need. We need 2 inputs with those capabilities to go to 1 kick ass panel.

gotcha.

 

[JohnRice]

This was a great listen, guys. I kept wishing I could chime in and really drive that separates argument home.

So, chime in here. That's what this thread is for.

 

[JohnRice]

No. It:
Doesn't do 4k 120hz
Doesn't do VRR
Doesn't do HDMI 2.1

And I suspect that the HDCP handshaking it does do is sketchy.

Also, it's a splitter. It takes 1 input and outputs to 4. What we need is a fully HDMI 2.1 / VRR / 4K120 input -selector-. If you have both a PS5 and Xbox Series X right now and a 2020 Receiver you can only have 1 device that is 4K120 but the DUMBASSES allow you to send it to two different devices. It's exactly the opposite of what gamers need. We need 2 inputs with those capabilities to go to 1 kick ass panel.

You just don't seem to prioritize what separates and external amps are for. It might not be your best choice. Separates are almost always a step behind the up-to-the-second tech, especially regarding video.

 

[John Dirk]

So, chime in here. That's what this thread is for.

I'll need to revisit the Podcast to put my talking points together first, but it's coming.

 

[John Dirk]

So, chime in here. That's what this thread is for.

I personally went to separates after the Onkyo receiver I owned at the time kept shutting down. Sure, this only happened when I drove it pretty hard but it still bothered me. That's when I took a closer look at it's spec's and saw that the claimed 130 WPC I paid for was only with 2 channels driven. What??? Why sell a receiver with 7 channels of amplification and only rate it for 2 channels? To me this was disingenuous and meant I had no empirical idea how many WPC the receiver was actually capable of delivering and this was before I even understood distortion and sensitivity.

As a technical person, I just wasn't comfortable with specifications like this as they are essentially meaningless. That's when I started looking into dedicated power amps. My first was the Outlaw model 7140, which I still have today. It's specifications made it very clear that the numbers you saw were for all channels driven and with nominally low distortion. The difference was unmistakable. I was sold right there and would never turn back.

Another important aspect of separates is that they are, well, "separate." When my Outlaw 7140 needed to go in for repair recently, I pulled out my trusty old Onkyo and used it as a stand-in power amp for the month I was without the Outlaw. You can't do that if everything is built into one chassis. Sure the sound was somewhat compromised but at least I wasn't dead in the water.

For me, Home Theater and music are passions, so I treat them as such. I don't drive the cars I do because they are practical or affordable. I drive them because I love cars and am willing to pay more for the pleasure they bring. My dream over the years with my theater room has been to have a system with unlimited headroom [available clean power] driving a set of world class speakers. I wanted to exceed the typical commercial experience. I do not believe you can achieve this with a receiver as it simply has too many jobs.

The above aside, I'm also not of the belief that one size fits all. In a smaller room, with reasonably efficient speakers and at moderate levels, a receiver will likely be fine, but that's not my environment. I modeled my room after actual commercial theaters and want both the audio and video to be as mesmerizing as possible for my available budget. Anyone who listens to a receiver-based system next to one powered by quality separates at levels even close to reference would likely notice the improved dynamics and clarity separates provide.

As always...

"That just my opinion. I could be wrong."
Dennis Miller

 

[JohnRice]

@John Dirk , I like that you talk about things being passions. That's a great way to look at it. I grew up in an environment of undeservedness, so that has been a steep hill for me to climb. I've gotten a lot of scowls and sharp comments from family members. It's a matter of choice. I'm often criticized for what I spend on A/V stuff and movies, but I point out to people that I'd never had a smartphone (until recently) and I haven't had cable TV for over 15 years. To me those things are a waste of money. People are very surprised to realize they've spent more, sometimes far more on those things than I've spent on my entire HT and media.

 

[Brian Dobbs]

@John Dirk , I like that you talk about things being passions. That's a great way to look at it. I grew up in an environment of undeservedness, so that has been a steep hill for me to climb. I've gotten a lot of scowls and sharp comments from family members. It's a matter of choice. I'm often criticized for what I spend on A/V stuff and movies, but I point out to people that I'd never had a smartphone (until recently) and I haven't had cable TV for over 15 years. To me those things are a waste of money. People are very surprised to realize they've spent more, sometimes far more on those things than I've spent on my entire HT and media.

THIS!

 

[Dave Upton]

I am posting a review soon where I go on a bit of a diatribe about the cost of this hobby. I'm going to post that segment here, because I think it's related to buying separates, or any expensive gear for your theater. Folks don't always realize what you have given up to have the gear you do:

A Short Sermon on Financing Our Hobby

Before some of you become irate that we are even reviewing such an expensive product line, I’d like to make a quick digression and explain my rationale behind buying more expensive gear for my home theater system.


Home theater and audio in general are not cheap or affordable hobbies. They are hobbies that can ostensibly be enjoyed affordably, but by and large we all must accept that this is not a pursuit one can fully embrace without being willing to save up and invest in your system, content or most often - both. That means that most of us have saved up, made sacrifices and been willing to give up things in other parts of our lives to afford our hobby.

Most of us have probably purchased at least one car in our lifetimes. Why bring that up? It is an investment of a similar amount of money to the Kanta system I’m reviewing here. Many of us also paid that car off over a number of years, and kept driving it afterwards to be fiscally responsible. Now, let’s pivot to your home theater. A room you and your family probably spend a lot more time in than your car, a room that lets you escape the real world and enjoy fantastical environs from the comfort of your recliner.


Let’s assume for argument’s sake that you decide (like I have) to keep driving an old car. Why not repurpose those funds to save for your home theater, putting a moderate amount of money aside on a monthly basis with the expectation that eventually you’ll be upgrading or replacing gear. At a savings rate of $300/month, you’d be able to afford an end-game system like this after only five and a half years. Expensive? Surely. Unattainable? Definitely not.

In fact, this is exactly what I did to eventually purchase my current Legacy Audio system, that cost a similar amount. It took me several years to save up for, but I have zero regrets. And yes, I’m still driving the same old sedan while I eye my next step.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think everyone’s point, particular Dave and John(s) about it being a hobby one invests in and expects long term use of make a lot of sense, and reflect my own thinking in many ways.

For years, I was watching VHS and then DVD on a 19” TV with just the built-in speakers for sound. I had a huge collection of tapes and discs and then one day it hit me: I’m spending hundreds if not thousands on things to watch, and then watching it all on a $300 TV I bought years ago. Until I looked at it as a math equation and not “I’m not a rich guy, people like me don’t spend X all at once on a TV,” nothing changed. But it wound up being just like Dave said: I watch TV every single day. I buy new discs every week (or at least I did then). Why is none of that investment going into making the viewing equation better? And that’s when I got my first projector. It wasn’t earth-shatteringly expensive but it was the most I had ever spent on a single item. And ever since then, I haven’t been afraid of investing in my system in areas that hold interest to me.

The issue of separates is fascinating to me but I fear that they may simply remain out of reach for me for quite some time. In that case, the expense in terms of cash isn’t the biggest limiting factor (though it certainly plays a part). For me, volume is. I have never, ever had a living situation, going back to being a kid, where I could turn up my stereo as loud as I would have wanted. Couldn’t do it as a kid with a bedroom in his parents’ house, couldn’t do it in an apartment with roommates in a shared building, and can’t do it now in a room that’s multipurpose in a house with a wife and young family. I would presumably need to have the theater gear in a dedicated room that was either physically distanced from the rest of the other rooms in the house, and/or a soundproofed room. As a renter rather than owner, that just doesn’t seem likely to happen. So it is external, practical forces that keep me on the multipurpose AVR track for the foreseeable future. I end up putting that investment into the visuals or the content, since the volume limitations limit how much of a return on investment I’d see on sound. For me, buying separates would probably be like buying a race car for the sole purpose of buying groceries from the store up the block every other week.

Nonetheless, I still appreciate the knowledge base here because you just never know. There might be a day where all of a sudden, this doesn’t seem out of reach anymore.

 

[Brian Dobbs]

can’t do it now in a room that’s multipurpose in a house with a wife and young family

bummer man.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

bummer man.

It’s not so bad - I’m probably more of a picture guy than a sound guy anyway, and besides that, can’t miss what you never had

By the time the kids are grown up, I’ll probably need the separates just to combat old age deafness

 

[DaveF]

I'm listening Catch you all in a day or two when I've finished!

 

[DanH1972]

In case you don’t know: VRR and 4k120 are NOT pass through features. If they were there would be no problem using my current receiver.

You better wait for HDMI 2.1 to mature with true 48 Gbps chipsets. If you cannot wait, get a Monoprice (ATI/Datasat) HTP-1 or Anthem 70 pre-amp, which have promised 2.1 board upgrades and DTS: X Pro in their future.

 

[DaveF]

@Brian Dobbs, Re: audio calibration

You’re calibrating volume only.

You‘re not calibrating frequency domain response or phase response. Audssey and its ilk do that.

If you want to keep it all under your control, don’t want to use an integrated system like Audyssey, have a look at REW. This is how you level up your preferred approach

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

If you really want to do it right, to truly hit “Achievement Unlocked” on your HT, you need to get into room treatments. Room treatments plus freq-domain calibration is <chef’s kiss>.

 

[DaveF]

@Sam Posten thanks for reminder on new Muppet show. Coworker told me about it. But i forgot. Gonna to wishlist to check out. Sounds fun

 

[DaveF]

@JohnRice and @Brian Dobbs re: amps for Atmos.

I have same amps for all speakers. I’ve got basically a pair of these, a 7-channel and 5-channel Marantz amp,for 140W per channel, all channels.

MM7055 Amplifier - 5 Ch. Power Amplifier | Marantz™

The Marantz™ MM7055 5 channel amplifier features a multiple-secondary EI-core transformer designed to deliver precise power wherever you need it.

www.marantz.com

Monoblocks were impractical for me. And I don’t have super inefficient speakers so don’t need 300W+ per speaker. So did multi-channel integrated amps. Good compromise for me.