Podcast Home Theater United Episode 13 - All about amps with special guest John Rice from HomeTheaterForum (1 Viewer)

[Dave Upton]

I’ve looked in REW. I’ve got a friend who uses it. Just, too much. Audyssey is work enough dealing with multiple mic locations. And there’s lots of lore and ancient teachings and philosophers stones on just how best to make Audyssey work best for multi-row seating.

Which, now I’ll have a little rant:

Why hasn’t Audyssey been updated specifically to support multi-row seating? Who uses Audyssey and buys $5000 pre-pros with top-line Audyssey? Enthusiasts with home theaters. It’s painfully obvious there’s a need, even, for room correction software that supports two or three seating scenarios. I’d use a (1) back row only that’s we mostly use for TV, (2) front row only for just two of us watching a movie and (3) full house six people in two rows. Unfortunately, it seems like room correction / calibration software just gave up ten years ago and hasn’t gotten any better since.

I’ve heard Anthem’s ARC is better than Audyssey. But, I’m guessing it’s still meant for single seating position, and not built for multi-row home theaters.

ARC Actually works great with multiple rows, however it’s always a compromise compared to the correction we can get with just one.

This really isn’t an engineering deficiency , but a function of the way room modes work. A lot of the axial modes that are excited that are being corrected by the algorithm are different between two rows of seating so corrections for the two rows often defeat one another.

In simplest form, these tools are creating a handful of filters to tame peaks and try to create peak filters in nulls, both of which are fairly consistent in a given position along the rooms axis. Once you start to have multiple X and Y positions involved, The frequencies that need correction change, so the corrections tend to become a lot less effective.

If you reduce the impact of these nulls and peaks with actual acoustic treatment, then the software can quite effectively correct for multiple rows or larger spaces.

 

[DaveF]

This really isn’t an engineering deficiency , but a function of the way room modes work. A lot of the axial modes that are excited that are being corrected by the algorithm are different between two rows of seating so corrections for the two rows often defeat one another.

It's a design deficiency. We use rooms in different ways for different viewings. Normally it's just me and the wife in the back row. Sometimes it's just me in the front row. Sometimes it's both of us in the front row. Sometimes, it's a party and it's six people in both rows. These different cases could benefit from different compromises in how the room correction is applied.

There's no reason why receivers and pre-pros can't offer multiple room-correction options for the user to setup and easi select between. There could be an optimized approach based on two mic positions at a single listening position. There could be front-frow optimized, back-row optimized, and multi-row optimized. The system could walk a user through how many and what mic positions to use. And have a simple UI to toggle to the desired room correction when desired.

I can't speak to ARC. But Audyssey leaves a tremendous amount to be desired. And there are obvious new features to be added for enthusiasts who spend big on this stuff. But...they've seemingly quit trying.

If ARC is that much better than Audyssey, and if Anthem has a much better designed implementation to help the user out, I may have to consider if it's worthwhile. (But Anthem is appreciably more expensive, so ARC has to be *a lot* better for me.)

 

[JohnRice]

Seems like a valid point that multiple calibrations could be saved for different situations and audience sizes.

 

[JohnRice]

Now that it's far too late, I wonder if we should have also gone into types of amps as well in this podcast. That might be too much for one episode, since there can be plenty of discussion and argument regarding that one aspect of amps. We are in a time where amp technology is evolving more than ever before.

 

[Dave Upton]

It's a design deficiency. We use rooms in different ways for different viewings. Normally it's just me and the wife in the back row. Sometimes it's just me in the front row. Sometimes it's both of us in the front row. Sometimes, it's a party and it's six people in both rows. These different cases could benefit from different compromises in how the room correction is applied.

There's no reason why receivers and pre-pros can't offer multiple room-correction options for the user to setup and easi select between. There could be an optimized approach based on two mic positions at a single listening position. There could be front-frow optimized, back-row optimized, and multi-row optimized. The system could walk a user through how many and what mic positions to use. And have a simple UI to toggle to the desired room correction when desired.

I can't speak to ARC. But Audyssey leaves a tremendous amount to be desired. And there are obvious new features to be added for enthusiasts who spend big on this stuff. But...they've seemingly quit trying.

If ARC is that much better than Audyssey, and if Anthem has a much better designed implementation to help the user out, I may have to consider if it's worthwhile. (But Anthem is appreciably more expensive, so ARC has to be *a lot* better for me.)

ARC does support multiple calibration profiles which can be easily swapped. I do this for music vs films and also for solo viewing vs with guests.

The profile for two rows will never sound as good as the smaller sweet spot profile though.

There’s no question anthem is expensive, but it is light years beyond audyssey. At a minimum you would probably benefit from upgrading to something with Dirac. I personally find Dirac about 85% as good as ARC Genesis. Before I upgraded from my AudioControl I had good results.

Forthcoming models from both Pioneer and Onkyo should be launching with Dirac in the second quarter.

 

[DaveF]

@Dave Upton That’s good info! I’ll have to check, but I don’t recall seeing those details about ARC in HTF reviews or in the Anthem website.

 

[JohnRice]

@Dave Upton That’s good info! I’ll have to check, but I don’t recall seeing those details about ARC in HTF reviews or in the Anthem website.

Dave, it's not the same but for what it's worth, the two Marantz units I own with Audyssey allow you to save configurations to a flash drive and switch them at will. Yeah, not as easy as just selecting from a menu, but it's something. As we discussed in the podcast, I don't use automated room correction , so I don't know the specifics.

 

[Dave Upton]

@Dave Upton That’s good info! I’ll have to check, but I don’t recall seeing those details about ARC in HTF reviews or in the Anthem website.

They're called speaker profiles but you're right, they aren't mentioned much.

ARC Genesis | Advanced Settings: Adjust ARC Settings > Set Up Speaker Profile(s)

www.anthemarc.com

What you do that really matters is adjust targets for each profile. I've got some specific changes on each profile to suit the content and/or listening position: https://www.anthemarc.com/arc-genesis/advanced-settings/adjust-arc-settings-adjust-targets.php

 

[DaveF]

@Dave Upton Thanks. I’ll have to talk more with you about this when I’m serious about replacing my 7702mkII (late this year or early next).

 

[DaveF]

Dave, it's not the same but for what it's worth, the two Marantz units I own with Audyssey allow you to save configurations to a flash drive and switch them at will. Yeah, not as easy as just selecting from a menu, but it's something. As we discussed in the podcast, I don't use automated room correction , so I don't know the specifics.

I use the network backup function to save state after running a new cal on my 7702mkII. So I could see that being a kludge. But practically, it’s a non-starter, unfortunately. And Audyssey isn’t designed for multi-row.

I don’t want to slag on Audyssey technically. I’ve used it for years and I think it helps. But, it feels like to me that they’ve won the marketing competition, and subsequently gave up further improvements in either implementation, feature set, or engineering improvements. It’s frustrating to a long-time user and fan.

 

[Brian Dobbs]

Sometimes, it's a party and it's six people in both rows

For the life of me, I can't get anyone (besides you and Sam) to come over and watch stuff with me these days.

 

[DaveF]

And now you're a bit far away for a evening viewing

But I hear you! Even before 2020, we had a hard time scheduling a group to come over. We only made it work for specific events. I did a Star Wars day. I did a Clue party. I was starting to plan a Lost Boys party, but the pandemic stopped that.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Before the pandemic and before kids, my wife and I lived within walking distance of three or four very good friends, and a quick subway ride away from at least half a dozen more - all big film fans, many who went to film school and/or work in the industry - and I think people came over to watch something on my projector maybe four or five times over as many years. It was always something people expressed interest in but just didn’t seem to work out in the end. Either the schedules didn’t work, or people wanted to hang out rather than watch something, or they didn’t want to go out to watch something they could watch at home.

No hard feelings on my part, honestly.

But the lesson I’m taking from that is that if I ever get to design a theater room vs cramming my stuff into the living room, I’m just not going to worry too much about optimizing it for group scenarios. Friends will obviously be welcome and I hope to have them over. But I’m seriously questioning whether it’s worth spending hundreds of dollars and/or hours of time purchasing and calibrating stuff to entertain once a year, if the baseline setting works fine for my wife and I year round. I just have to learn to accept that the time in my life where people would regularly come over to watch hours of TV with me are probably over.

 

[DaveF]

Yep. When we get together, it was often social gatherings with food and drinks and conversation. Busy adults who struggle to find time to socialI’ve don’t want to spend their time sitting in a dark room not socializing.

And when they do, it’s easier to go to the super-awesome commercial theater with in-theater dining and drinks service.

I have no hard feelings about it. Adulting is hard enough. I enjoy our movie parties when they happen. And the other parties that we do even more often.

 

[Sam Posten]

Boom!



Thanks for all your support guys. Next ep records Monday night with a very special guest

 

[JohnRice]

This was a great listen, guys. I kept wishing I could chime in and really drive that separates argument home.

I realize now that I've gotten so careful not to push separates on anyone that I didn't delve into the benefits as much as I wish I had. I also wish I had touched on the main classes of amps, just to explain the fundamental differences in their design. It would have given the opportunity to explain that weight is no longer a major indication of the quality or power of an amp.

 

[Sam Posten]

Noted for sure John!

 

[John Dirk]

But the lesson I’m taking from that is that if I ever get to design a theater room vs cramming my stuff into the living room, I’m just not going to worry too much about optimizing it for group scenarios. Friends will obviously be welcome and I hope to have them over. But I’m seriously questioning whether it’s worth spending hundreds of dollars and/or hours of time purchasing and calibrating stuff to entertain once a year, if the baseline setting works fine for my wife and I year round. I just have to learn to accept that the time in my life where people would regularly come over to watch hours of TV with me are probably over.

Your thinking is spot on. My room seats 5 and we've owned this particular home for as many years. In that time we've probably had an average of one full length group movie showing per year. I also usually do a Superbowl gathering but obviously not this year. I'm in my room almost daily. My wife comes down only for rare scheduled film showings and I have no complaints about that. My room has primarily become my place to think, reflect, and of course plan upgrades.

And when they do, it’s easier to go to the super-awesome commercial theater with in-theater dining and drinks service.

What do you mean? Our rooms have those things and also a pause button. No commercial theater offers that!

 

[DaveF]

What do you mean? Our rooms have those things and also a pause button. No commercial theater offers that!

I know you're joking / serious, but literally the Alamo Drafthouse in our neighborhood (a ten minute walk) offers full service, in-theater dining and drinks and if desired a massive Dolby Vision, Atmos theater. It also has a full bar with indoor and outdoor seating to hang out at before, after, or without a movie.

Friends are happier to go there for a movie because it's easier even than someone's home: full menu, full bar, fresh popcorn (far more than I can offer for snacks and drinks as a host).

It's hard to convey in words, but a home theater can't really compete with an Alamo Drafthouse. Alamo Drafthouse in your neighborhood is the home theater you wished you had.

I'd be there every week (in normal times), except I just can't really do normal theaters anymore because of hearing issues (too loud).

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I know you're joking / serious, but literally the Alamo Drafthouse in our neighborhood (a ten minute walk) offers full service, in-theater dining and drinks and if desired a massive Dolby Vision, Atmos theater. It also has a full bar with indoor and outdoor seating to hang out at before, after, or without a movie.

Friends are happier to go there for a movie because it's easier even than someone's home: full menu, full bar, fresh popcorn (far more than I can offer for snacks and drinks as a host).

It's hard to convey in words, but a home theater can't really compete with an Alamo Drafthouse. Alamo Drafthouse in your neighborhood is the home theater you wished you had.

I'd be there every week (in normal times), except I just can't really do normal theaters anymore because of hearing issues (too loud).

I don't know about that. I could go either way myself. Yeah, Alamo is better for the food part, but if I already have a very good, dedicated HT room ready to go, it costs a lot less to host, especially if people want a couple beers, etc, and you're much more free to do whatever, including a movie marathon of your choice, which you're not gonna do at Alamo's.

I think it really depends... Sometimes, Alamo's make sense (mostly because we don't have to clean up afterwards plus for new theatrical releases), but other times, my dedicated HT will make more sense...

And if it's just me and the family, it's usually gonna be my dedicated HT, not Alamo's, since we're usually in no rush to see something new to theaters...

_Man_