International Deep Red (4K Remaster) Arrow Video. (1 Viewer)

[turtledove]

Of course you do, but your eyes alone will I promise be very far from accurate. There is loads of great information on this online.

If my eyes are not good enough to be accurate why would they be able to see any imperfections in my setup? Surely what my eyes cannot see well enough to adjust is unimportant.

Are you really saying I should have my setup calibrated using technical devices that can read adjustments my eyes cannot see?

What a total waste of time and money but if that's what you need to enjoy movies who am I to judge?


As i said earlier - with all the complaints about changes being made to movies in the digital domain before they appear on Bluray the likelihood that we ever see what was shown in cinemas decades ago is remote so what's the point in calibrating for perfection when what you are watching isn't the genuine article anyway?

 

[Sgt Pepper]

The fact my calibration disc shows my personal setup was perfect shows your view is void.

Clearly some people don't need to pay someone else to tell them what they should be looking at.

I bought a calibration disc which told me I needed no adjustment - what more could I do?

My 50+ years of viewing and 30+ years of installs must have helped


As I and others have said - screengrabs are ok as a guide. Anyone who bases their view of a disc purely on screengrabs is rather foolhardy.


My views of Beaver are based on some of the twaddle he writes along with his techno babble that wouldn't be out of place in Star Trek. Screengrabs are as equally worthless from any source - but I am looking on a laptop. I guess they are a bit more worthwhile if your monitor is much larger


Are you on some kind of commission? I see you're waging a similar war for this title on Bluray.com

How was Greyscale and Gamma on your set up, was the Colour Gamut anywhere near accurate. Were Delta Errors below the three threshold (we would not want any nasty tints in there). We need to get all of these as near as possible so as we are all viewing from as close to the same playing field as possible.


You say screen grabs are worthless from any source but you are not explaining how.


Edit

What mode on your set up you viewing in?


PS

Are you unhappy with this release?

 

[turtledove]

But if all those settings were inaccurate on my setup all my viewing would still be done from the same level playing field that I base my opinions on.


Screengrabs are STILLS. Movies MOVE. Hence , almost worthless ,specially on my laptop.

Many people , including me won't judge a disc until we see it in motion. Ok, grabs can be useful for basic comparison between 2 releases of the same film but as a quality indicator of any disc I don't use them

 

[Sgt Pepper]

If my eyes are not good enough to be accurate why would they be able to see any imperfections in my setup? Surely what my eyes cannot see well enough to adjust is unimportant.

Are you really saying I should have my setup calibrated using technical devices that can read adjustments my eyes cannot see?

What a total waste of time and money but if that's what you need to enjoy movies who am I to judge?


As i said earlier - with all the complaints about changes being made to movies in the digital domain before they appear on Bluray the likelihood that we ever see what was shown in cinemas decades ago is remote so what's the point in calibrating for perfection when what you are watching isn't the genuine article anyway?

No I am saying your eyes are very poor at making adjustments correctly, but hey ho your mind is made up.


What war on Blu Ray.Com and commission??


You have totally lost me and I am guessing most others with this statement:


" As i said earlier - with all the complaints about changes being made to movies in the digital domain before they appear on Bluray the likelihood that we ever see what was shown in cinemas decades ago is remote so what's the point in calibrating for perfection when what you are watching isn't the genuine article anyway?"


This:



"Brand new 4K scan of the original negative"


This might help explain calibration far better than I can:


http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322

 

[turtledove]

No I am saying your eyes are very poor at making adjustments correctly, but hey ho your mind is made up.


What war on Blu Ray.Com and commission??


You have totally lost me and I am guessing most others with this statement:


" As i said earlier - with all the complaints about changes being made to movies in the digital domain before they appear on Bluray the likelihood that we ever see what was shown in cinemas decades ago is remote so what's the point in calibrating for perfection when what you are watching isn't the genuine article anyway?"


This:



"Brand new 4K scan of the original negative"


This might help explain calibration far better than I can:


http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322

How can my eyes be poor at making adjustments? And if they are what does it matter?

The calibration disc has various test patterns and all of the setup I did myself without paying someone matches their perfect settings 99%.



My comment about movies being changed: forums are full of posts about new releases of old movies. People complain about not enough grain, too much grain, a "teal lean" ( the funniest complaint of recent times), incorrect colour grading, too much DNR, questionable ratios and many other complaints about how movies ( even ones remastered from the original negative) have been changed from the way they were seen in cinemas. All restorations , regardless of what the source is are digitised and fed into a computer where changes , adjustments etc are made for better or worse. Unless todays technicians have reference material ( and even if they do) they make alterations that might be wrong and that some people do not like.


On this very forum people complain about the colour grading for The King and I. Everybody complained about how Friedkin changed The French Connection. Bizarrely, Arrow allowed someone who wasn't the director to chop off a lot of the image for their Bluray of The Bird With the Crystal Plumage. The list goes on.


If my setup isn't 100% perfectly calibrated I don't care. The differences will be small and I will watch every Bluray I watch on the same setup so if I say the contrast is boosted on one title it means I'm comparing it with other titles I've watched on the same setup. The contrast may be wrong on every title but all discs are watched with the same settings so whether a technician with devices says its ok is of no importance to me at all.

I trust my own judgement. I only purchased the Disney WOW disc because there were so many people using the get out clause , as you have, to say someone must be wrong in their view of a disc because their system isn't calibrated. So I was very smug when the disc seemed to agree my settings were fine.


Perhaps if I had a 10 foot projection setup it might have a little more relevance but my 42" screen looks great to me.



When the grabs first appeared you seemed to be posting similar comments on Bluray.com to what you have here.

 

[Persianimmortal]

And away we go with the same old debate.


Screencaps are an accurate reflection of the data on a Blu-ray disc, and given movies are simply 24 static frames played in rapid succession every second, for most intents and purposes they can be used to reliably gauge image quality. The argument that screencaps are "useless" because movies MOVE implies that some sort of unspecified magic occurs during the process of playing back 24 still frames every second. It doesn't.


However, what a single screencap can't capture are frame-to-frame image fluctuations, such as fluctuating contrast, color or grain. But most transfers don't have significant issues with regards to these aspects. Discussed further in this thread


So basically if you're the kind of person who wants to see what a disc looks like before you purchase it, play back a selection of screencaps from a reputable review site on your display (e.g. save them onto a USB drive and plug it into your BD player), and voila! you can get a pretty accurate idea of what the disc will actually look like. Screencaps aren't perfect but they're far from useless.


As for calibration, the main aim is to ensure that what you're watching is shown as close as possible to the way the director intended it. By calibrating your display to Rec.709 standards, you can be confident that when you play back a Blu-ray disc, you are seeing color, contrast, brightness and gamma at the intended levels.


If accuracy or director intent aren't important to you, then of course you can set your display settings however you wish. Calibration isn't mandatory; it's desirable.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

How can my eyes be poor at making adjustments? And if they are what does it matter?

The calibration disc has various test patterns and all of the setup I did myself without paying someone matches their perfect settings 99%.



My comment about movies being changed: forums are full of posts about new releases of old movies. People complain about not enough grain, too much grain, a "teal lean" ( the funniest complaint of recent times), incorrect colour grading, too much DNR, questionable ratios and many other complaints about how movies ( even ones remastered from the original negative) have been changed from the way they were seen in cinemas. All restorations , regardless of what the source is are digitised and fed into a computer where changes , adjustments etc are made for better or worse. Unless todays technicians have reference material ( and even if they do) they make alterations that might be wrong and that some people do not like.


On this very forum people complain about the colour grading for The King and I. Everybody complained about how Friedkin changed The French Connection. Bizarrely, Arrow allowed someone who wasn't the director to chop off a lot of the image for their Bluray of The Bird With the Crystal Plumage. The list goes on.


If my setup isn't 100% perfectly calibrated I don't care. The differences will be small and I will watch every Bluray I watch on the same setup so if I say the contrast is boosted on one title it means I'm comparing it with other titles I've watched on the same setup. The contrast may be wrong on every title but all discs are watched with the same settings so whether a technician with devices says its ok is of no importance to me at all.

I trust my own judgement. I only purchased the Disney WOW disc because there were so many people using the get out clause , as you have, to say someone must be wrong in their view of a disc because their system isn't calibrated. So I was very smug when the disc seemed to agree my settings were fine.


Perhaps if I had a 10 foot projection setup it might have a little more relevance but my 42" screen looks great to me.



When the grabs first appeared you seemed to be posting similar comments on Bluray.com to what you have here.

I take it you took no notice of my link.


Yes I posted the same comments simply because this sort of lack of understanding is quite common on forums. The disc you used basicly adjusts brightness and nothing else. There are as Persian Immortal has said industry standards that puts everything on the same level playing field so to speak. If your happy not calibrating so be it, but your opinion of colour etc will be moot.

 

[bigshot]

I don't think he's on commission. I think it's just an over-enthusiastic kid. He certainly isn't overburdened with logic. He argues with you that the Disney WOW disc isn't good enough to calibrate a system, then he argues with me saying that Spears and Munsil calibration doesn't matter. He uses the argument from authority fallacy for Beaver. And he's thrown out the old, "if you disagree with me, either your equipment sucks or you are blind" saw. Welcome to the internet forums!


If I didn't already have the Blue Underground release, I might buy the Arrow. But there is nothing wrong with the Blue Underground disc. It looks and sounds fine. (Sounds better in fact.)

 

[Sgt Pepper]

I don't think he's on commission. I think it's just an over-enthusiastic kid. He certainly isn't overburdened with logic. He argues with you that the Disney WOW disc isn't good enough to calibrate a system, then he argues with me saying that Spears and Munsil calibration doesn't matter. He uses the argument from authority fallacy for Beaver. And he's thrown out the old, "if you disagree with me, either your equipment sucks or you are blind" saw. Welcome to the internet forums!


If I didn't already have the Blue Underground release, I might buy the Arrow. But there is nothing wrong with the Blue Underground disc. It looks and sounds fine. (Sounds better in fact.)

These discs can be superb to calibrate a system (I have both) and where did I say "Spears & Munsil does not matter" ( I have spoken to Stacey Spears may times through the forums), what you guys are doing is basically adjusting brightness and that's it! there is so much more to it than that as I have tried to show you but you refuse to listen. Thanks for the Kid complement by the way (I am 54 years young).


I am disagreeing with you as I have the discs and all the information regarding the restoration in front of me. I also showed you the review from Blu ray.Com and the superb Grabs from Land Of Whimsey


I think your arguing for arguing sake now.


I will stick "again" with the experts on this release and what my fully calibrated system agrees with, not the armchair variety. If you are happy with the sub par release from BU that is your choice.


Sounds better??


PS

If you read Persian Immortals excellent post he puts things far better than me.


PSPS

I think it was Josh Steinberg who said we will never agree, and I got that, but you keep coming back for more............so be it.

 

[turtledove]

As for calibration, the main aim is to ensure that what you're watching is shown as close as possible to the way the director intended it. By calibrating your display to Rec.709 standards, you can be confident that when you play back a Blu-ray disc, you are seeing color, contrast, brightness and gamma at the intended levels.


If accuracy or director intent aren't important to you, then of course you can set your display settings however you wish. Calibration isn't mandatory; it's desirable.

Which is where my comment regarding whether current Blurays actually supply what the director intended anyway comes in. Browse forums and there are countless complaints covering all manner of things people don't think are right.

 

[turtledove]

I take it you took no notice of my link.


Yes I posted the same comments simply because this sort of lack of understanding is quite common on forums. The disc you used basicly adjusts brightness and nothing else. There are as Persian Immortal has said industry standards that puts everything on the same level playing field so to speak. If your happy not calibrating so be it, but your opinion of colour etc will be moot.

The WOW disc covers absolutely everything across the calibration setup.

It has 3 levels and the Expert level goes in depth. IIRC there are 2 different WOW discs.

If you have one I'm not sure why you would claim they only serve to adjust brightness. That is absolute piffle.


Even the THX setups cover more than just brightness

As I will be the one watching my setup my opinion of colour is 100% accurate according to the most important factor - me.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Which is where my comment regarding whether current Blurays actually supply what the director intended anyway comes in. Browse forums and there are countless complaints covering all manner of things people don't think are right.

The ones I am talking about do and even if some don't using the standard and comparisons that can become glaringly obvious.

 

[turtledove]

I don't think he's on commission. I think it's just an over-enthusiastic kid. He certainly isn't overburdened with logic. He argues with you that the Disney WOW disc isn't good enough to calibrate a system, then he argues with me saying that Spears and Munsil calibration doesn't matter. He uses the argument from authority fallacy for Beaver. And he's thrown out the old, "if you disagree with me, either your equipment sucks or you are blind" saw. Welcome to the internet forums!


If I didn't already have the Blue Underground release, I might buy the Arrow. But there is nothing wrong with the Blue Underground disc. It looks and sounds fine. (Sounds better in fact.)

Indeed.

He obviously has no idea what the Disney disc includes and I'm just starting to wonder why I've wasted so much time on discussing things with someone who looks to DVd Beaver - one of the most , if not the most clueless "experts" on the net.

Time to bow out.

I'll pop back next week when my copy of the new disc arrives

 

[turtledove]

The ones I am talking about do and even if some don't using the standard and comparisons that can become glaringly obvious.

To be fair, nobody knows for sure we are seeing what the director intended. One particular member of this forum makes sweeping comments on classic movies that apparently don't look like they did when he watched them at the cinema 50 years ago. Surely you can take those comments with a pinch of salt.


I said earlier , that grabs can be useful for comparing side by side images from 2 releases of the same film.

But I would never ever make any decision on buying a disc based on grabs alone.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

The WOW disc covers absolutely everything across the calibration setup.

It has 3 levels and the Expert level goes in depth.


Even the THX setups cover more than just brightness

As I will be the one watching my setup my opinion of colour is 100% accurate according to the most important factor - me.

100% wrong, you will be using an opinion rather than a scientific fact.


The WOW disc will only be useful for very basic settings like brightness unless you have the correct equipment or better still a professional to do it for you. Again this is explained in the Calibration For Dummies link I posted.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Indeed.

He obviously has no idea what the Disney disc includes and I'm just starting to wonder why I've wasted so much time on discussing things with someone who looks to DVd Beaver - one of the most , if not the most clueless "experts" on the net.

Time to bow out.

I'll pop back next week when my copy of the new disc arrives

I had a feeling you might bow out LOL.


As I said I have Disney WOW, Spears & Munsil and AVSHD as well as some quite expensive equipment to use them correctly for more advanced calibration, but again you are choosing to ignore my links which to anyone looking in is very telling.

 

[turtledove]

100% wrong, you will be using an opinion rather than a scientific fact.


The WOW disc will only be useful for very basic settings like brightness unless you have the correct equipment or better still a professional to do it for you. Again this is explained in the Calibration For Dummies link I posted.

You obviously don't have the WOW disc as you claim.

To mirror one of your earlier posts on this thread - posts like this really piss me off and I'm going to bow out now before I post something I regret.


You continue to miss the point. I don't want a "professional" to set my system up. I can do it myself. Once it's setup I shall be watching it not the "professional" so his opinion is of no interest to me.

Maybe I should ask him which movies I should buy

 

[turtledove]

I had a feeling you might bow out LOL.


As I said I have Disney WOW, Spears & Munsil and AVSHD as well as some quite expensive equipment to use them correctly for more advanced calibration, but again you are choosing to ignore my links which to anyone looking in is very telling.

Obviously I will bow out when you start posting the drivel you have today.

Congrats on spending xx amount of money to get your system the way the professional tells you to watch.


Me- I take up the option that manufacturers offer on every tv set - I use the adjustment controls to make the image how I like to see it.


I can't take you seriously anymore - I should have stopped at the start when you started raving about the new Deep Red based only on grabs from DVD Beaver.


I will be back when the disc is delivered and I shall probably agree it looks great but we can agree to differ on the need to spend money getting someone else to set the tv controls to their correct levels.

I actually find the concept of having a technical device to adjust things your eyes cannot see quite laughable.

Catch you Monday

 

[Sgt Pepper]

You obviously don't have the WOW disc as you claim.

To mirror one of your earlier posts - post like this really piss me off and I'm going to bow out now before I post something I regret.


You continue to miss the point. I don't want a "professional" to set my system up. I can do it myself. Once it's setup I shall be watching it not the "professional" so his opinion is of no interest to me.

Maybe I should ask him which movies I should buy

As I said I have the WOW disc, S&M and AVSHD the latter being the most professional apart from Signal Generators and the such. Why are you ignoring the Calibration For Dummies link?

If you set it up as you like it will purely be an opinion and not in any way accurate.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Obviously I will bow out when you start posting the drivel you have today.

Congrats on spending xx amount of money to get your system the way the professional tells you to watch.


Me- I take up the option that manufacturers offer on every tv set - I use the adjustment controls to make the image how I like to see it.


I can't take you seriously anymore - I should have stopped at the start when you started raving about the new Deep Red based only on grabs from DVD Beaver.


I will be back when the disc is delivered and I shall probably agree it looks great but we can agree to differ on the need to spend money getting someone else to set the tv controls to their correct levels.

I actually find the concept of having a technical device to adjust things your eyes cannot see quite laughable.

Catch you Monday

" Adjust things your eye can not see" what on earth makes you think that. You really think you can adjust your TV by eye to the correct levels. Now that is laughable and shows you are totally unwilling to look at and learn what calibration is all about.


PS

Those options, Gamma, White Balance, etc are there for pro calibration and can not be used simply by eye.