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Coming in September, according to Philips....SACD II (1 Viewer)

Al B. C

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Didn't you just know that Sony was gonna screw the pooch on this thing sooner or later?

That noise you hear is the sound of a gun cocking, as Sony prepares to shoot off one of their feet.

Well at least they are consistent. :)
 

John Kotches

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It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Let's look at a few aspects of the two technologies:

Focus on multi-channel audio delivery
DVD-Audio, Day 1
SACD, Year 2+ (when did the first MC player show up anyway?)

Video content support
DVD-Audio, Day 1
SACD, Year 4+ (will never be realized in SACD(v1) if reports are true)

Creation of marketing council
DVD-Audio June 2003
SACD July 2003

This is essentially concurrent

Delivery of hybrid media
DVD-Audio, still under development
SACD, Day 1

So, clearly both sides are learning from one another, which isn't a bad thing.

Regards,
 

Paul_Medenwaldt

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As someone who has recently started purchasing DVD-A titles and looking forward to getting a SACD player next year, I find this news, but more then likely rumors disturbing.

IMO each format has a lifespan. The "LP" had years of service, then 8-Tracks came along, then cassettes, then CD's which so far has about a 15 years of usage commercially.

The same with video format, film, beta to vhs to laserdisc to DVD.

With a format being so new commercially such as SACD, I am not sure why they would want to all of a sudden change and upgrade the format. Why would someone who is looking into investing in this format to include in a home theater want to purchase this, if then in a few short years a new format then takes over leaving your library obsolete and no longer supported.

How many people have mini-CD's or DAT's hanging around?

Paul
 

Lee Scoggins

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So, clearly both sides are learning from one another, which isn't a bad thing.
Finally something we can agree on. These extra features may only be a win for the consumer. The HFR article speculates that both formats are converging toward similar features.

Hmmm...what might this mean?

1. Wide variety of "universal" players - hopefully good implementation of DSD and hirez PCM. Perhaps Sony and Philips start offering universal players as well...

2. More title selection as consumer may become indifferent to either format as long as they get good sound and can play both.

3. More production tools to do either in the recording studio as engineers see that both formats might survive.

4. Simultaneous releases in both formats.

5. Maybe the most important: Less confusion at the retailer level which means greater shelf/end cap space for hirez media and better selection of hirez capable DVD players.

Now it is possible that audiophile purists will be initially concerned but greater title selection will more than make up for that IMHO, as long as they don't obsolete current discs and players owned by same.

I think this is a good thing. Sony/Philips see that consumer wants video content and they add that in.

I am not sure what to make of the copy protection since we don't have the specifics. I guess that I am indifferent as SACD does not have audible watermarking and the newer schemes for DVDA are maybe barely audible if that. I think the lead-in PSP process is quite good for SACD though as it is not audible and (I am told by several sources) reduces pressing jitter.

On balance a good thing, but we should be cautious and await official specs and announcements.
 

Lee Scoggins

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Why would someone who is looking into investing in this format to include in a home theater want to purchase this, if then in a few short years a new format then takes over leaving your library obsolete and no longer supported.
Paul, again there is no evidence that the new format version will make anything obsolete. It's just paranoid speculation on the web...
 

Rich Malloy

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John and Lee, I see your points (and agree with a few of them), but simply playing follow-the-leader on this or that random matter isn't necessarily good or desireable. Yes, it was important that DVD-A made their discs compatible with monitor-less systems (though I'm forced to use a monitor in my DVD-V player setup in order to access the DTS track on even the latest discs like "Everything Must Go", as they all default to Dolby Digital and my "audio track" button won't select between them). And, yes, it was very important that SACD adopt multichannel, just as it was for DVD-A to adopt discrete hi-rez stereo releases on all their discs.

But copy protection and some negligible amount of video content? Forgive me for raining on the parade of good-will between the formats, but these are not things worth copying. I'd much rather see DVD-A give up on copy protection than see SACD adopt it (though I understand why it's important to them and, again, I'm not adverse so long as it's inaudible), and I'd much rather see DVD-A rely less on video content in favor of more and better audio content than see SACD do just the opposite. Again, not a real big deal, I guess, but I'll not applaud something I don't like or which lacks inherent or relative value simply because everybody's doing it.
 

Lee Scoggins

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But copy protection and some negligible amount of video content? Forgive me for raining on the parade of good-will between the formats, but these are not things worth copying.
Rich, you are a level headed guy and I see where you are coming from, however SACD already has good copy protection-see the discussion of PSP and lead-in scrambling. So we don't really have good solid confirmation that this will change although the article suggests it will. My biggest problem with copy protection is if it becomes audible or if it changes the format such that current software/hardware becomes obsolete. I just don't see either one happening.

This may have been prompted by Philips sensing that users wanted some video content. I don't value video content very much relative to music, but I don't care if they add it as a way to get more market traction.

I just want good sounding music and more and more great titles.
 

Paul_Medenwaldt

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"Had"? It is alive and well. See Michael Fremer at Stereophile. Good software and hardware selection and a real nice growth rate on the vinyl front.
Lee,

My reference to 'had' was because of popularity not because no one is using the format. Each format has a long term spike in popularity. LP was used as a primary standard for listening to music for a generations. Only in the last 30 years have we seen the change in formats rollover so quickly from 2 different tape formats to discs, with a spattering of other formats in-between.

My second point in reference to being obsolete. Music companies have not been known to fully support a format once it has fallen out of popularity with the general public. When is the last time you walked into Best Buy or Circuit City or Sam Goody and were able to purchase a cassette tape of a recent release? Why would J6P want to purchase something that is new if they are already talking about replacing it with a different standard. But its just my humble opinion.

Paul
 

Lee Scoggins

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My second point in reference to being obsolete.
There is no evidence that current SACD players and discs will be made obsolete.

What's curious about this is that some Philips Europe people are discussing it but nothing official yet. If they were going to do this, one supposes they would keep this pretty close to the vest...yet HFR implies that word is out. I wonder if maybe we should file this more in the rumor category until we get more corroborating evidence. Also, the HFR story had no direct quotes regarding either copy protection or backward compatibility which seem to be the biggest concerns of some.
 

Wes

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Tell me, why does DVD-A need a hybrid? If they want DVD-A customers to have a CD copy then just place a CD with the DVD-A disc! I think most customers would rather have a separate disc for the car and the house. I see no advantage to having a side for CD and a side for DVD-A.

***A note to DVD-A producers***

Stop worrying about hybrids and video content and start giving us some new titles with some more awesome 5.1 mixes like Rumors and Hotel California. And promote DVD-A as 5.1 DVD music that will play on current DVD systems, let customers learn later that they can buy a DVD-A player that will give them even better resolution from the same disc the already own. I know many people that have 5.1 DD/dts systems that have never heard of 5.1 music, most will not run out and buy a DVD-A player(including myself as of yet) but would love to hear their favorite albums in 5.1!

Just the way I see it!


Wes
 

Mike Broadman

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Tell me, why does DVD-A need a hybrid? If they want DVD-A customers to have a CD copy then just place a CD with the DVD-A disc! I think most customers would rather have a separate disc for the car and the house. I see no advantage to having a side for CD and a side for DVD-A.
Dude, I'm not even being sarcastic here- that's f***ing brilliant.
 

Lee Scoggins

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We'll just have to wait to find out the nature of the physical evidence. If it is merely the DNA proving Kobe had sexual relations with her, then obviously Kobe has de-fused that part of it by admitting to adultery and their case would boil down solely to a "he said/she said". If there are intrusion-type injuries, that's another can of worms.
Great observation and it would be very cheap. Most CD wholesale costs on bigsellers are well under a dollar, some even below $0.50.

Still, its nice to have one disc do both and that's where Super Audio comes in handy. :)
 

Wes

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We'll just have to wait to find out the nature of the physical evidence. If it is merely the DNA proving Kobe had sexual relations with her, then obviously Kobe has de-fused that part of it by admitting to adultery and their case would boil down solely to a "he said/she said". If there are intrusion-type injuries, that's another can of worms.
I think your reading too much out of my post!;)

Wes
 

Scott Merryfield

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Hmmm...what might this mean?

1. Wide variety of "universal" players - hopefully good implementation of DSD and hirez PCM. Perhaps Sony and Philips start offering universal players as well...

2. More title selection as consumer may become indifferent to either format as long as they get good sound and can play both.

3. More production tools to do either in the recording studio as engineers see that both formats might survive.

4. Simultaneous releases in both formats.

5. Maybe the most important: Less confusion at the retailer level which means greater shelf/end cap space for hirez media and better selection of hirez capable DVD players.
I do not understand how creating a revised format by adding video content to SACD provides a catalyst for the above changes. Any of those items can be accomplished today -- they are business, not technology, issues.

Personally, SACDII holds no interest for me. All Sony/Philips can do is potentially force me out of the format altogether. If SACDII is more than a rumor and is 100% backward compatible, then I can continue to enjoy the format (I do not care about the video content at all -- if I want to watch video footage, I'll watch a DVD-Video concert). If there are compatibility issues, then I will no longer invest in the SACD format.

edited for typo
 

Lee Scoggins

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I do not understand how creating a revised format by adding video content to SACD provides a catalyst for the above changes.
It's easy why this would happen - both formats may converge to offer the consumer the same set of features thereby increasing the likelihood that the hirez market becomes more "universal" with players that do well with either format. That also leads to more acceptance and less confusion at the retailer level, a key hurdle.

Here's some evidence that things are catching on:

Best Buy in Atlanta has really been pushing hirez. In my neighborhood store yesterday I saw two inch tall banners at the top of every music row saying to visit the Super Audio and DVD Audio section for the latest in digital audio. There were at least a couple dozen well-placed banners. That's going to capture a lot of eyeballs in the regular redbook bins. The SACD inventory is doing well too with Best Buy putting out most of the big hirez releases every Tuesday.

:)
 

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