Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS ALLOWED THREAD (1 Viewer)

[Thomas Newton]

Though, the Ancient One said in Doctor Strange that she couldn't see past her own death, so how can Strange? He seems to have exceeded her abilities in a relatively short amount of time, versus how long she was doing his job before he came along.

Did she use the Time Stone (Eye of Agamotto) when trying to see past her own death? Or just magic? I can't recall.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Though, the Ancient One said in Doctor Strange that she couldn't see past her own death, so how can Strange? He seems to have exceeded her abilities in a relatively short amount of time, versus how long she was doing his job before he came along.

I'm guessing it's because he was brought back. The timelines where he couldn't see further than the Snap he probably wrote off as failures. Within the timelines where he was brought back, the one we saw was the only one where Thanos's threat was neutralized, and the ability of the stones to wreak havoc was also neutralized.

 

[Thomas Newton]

I'm guessing it's because he was brought back.

So he could see up to his own death … and then after his resurrection, but not anything in the 5-year period in-between?

 

[Jake Lipson]

Incidentally, I think the necessity of Tony being alive to perfect the quantum version of time travel is the reason Doctor Strange sacrificed himself and the Time Stone to save Tony.

So he could see up to his own death … and then after his resurrection, but not anything in the 5-year period in-between?

This is interesting because if Doctor Strange could not see the period in between his death and his resurrection, he would not have known that Tony perfected the quantum version of time travel, because Tony does that during the period in which Strange is dead. Nothing in the movie after Strange comes back pauses to explain to the previously dead characters about the time travel element. That's why Quill is so surprised to see Gamora in the battle, because he doesn't know that it is 2014 Gamora and assumes upon seeing her that she has been resurrected as well.

So either:

a) During Infinity War, when he was viewing the possible futures, Doctor Strange essentially saw the entire Endgame movie, including the parts for which he wasn't alive;

or

b) He did not see the five years in between his death and resurrection, but saw himself being told that Tony perfected the time travel at some point.

or

c) He did not know that Tony perfected the time travel, but did know Tony snapped Thanos out of existence and therefore had to be alive for that.

I just got back from the move for the third time and again loved it. It's really amazing how much terrific character work is done in here, especially since they have so many characters to deal with, but pretty much everyone who is alive at the beginning of the film gets a lot of great stuff to do, and even several of the snap victims get great moments upon returning..

I watched the first Iron Man last night for the first time in a long time, and it's amazing to think that something as massive as this was in the future for Tony Stark. That original film felt very grounded and realistic (up to a point for what they were doing), and if you had told me then that Tony was eventually going to go to space to fight a big purple dude and get a moon thrown at him before almost dying in space, I wouldn't have believed that would work organically in the world that they created in the first film. But of course it totally does work. Seeing two films from two distinctly different periods back-to-back underscores what a massive worldbuilding achievement the MCU is And yet Jarvis makes a sarcastic remark about needing to improve the suit "if you intend to visit other planets" right there in the first movie. That makes me wonder if that was seeded into the first one deliberately, or if they reverse-engineered Infinity War sending him to space to take advantage of that foreshadowing. There's also a reference to the Walt Disney Concert Hall in the first Iron Man, which was before Marvel was acquired by Disney.

In terms of small details, I hadn't noticed before that the storage area in which the van is being kept has the name "Lang" on it. So who put the van there? As in, how did it get from where they were working at the end of Ant-Man and the Wasp when the snap happened into storage Did Cassie do that? Since she's not of age, I'm not sure she could have rented a storage unit. Would her mom and stepfather have wanted to bother with storing Hank's van?

Also, we know from the post-credits scene that Scott went down to the Quantum Realm to get healing particles for Ava/Ghost, and he says he secured them before he expected Hank, Hope and Janet to pull him out. What happened to Ava during the snap? If she survived the snap, she wouldn't have gotten the healing particles when she needed them because of Scott being trapped for five years of Earth time. If she did get snapped and came back, they might be able to resume their attempt to help her now. Presumably the third Ant-Man movie will have to pick up this story. Also, if Scott was down in the Quantum Realm for five hours but Earth had five years, then why does Janet actually look like she aged 30 years while she was trapped in there? I mean, I know that she was down there way longer than Scott was, but still. Some more specificity about the Quantum Realm in the third Ant-Man would be welcome.

 

[Joe Wong]

This is interesting because if Doctor Strange could not see the period in between his death and his resurrection, he would not have known that Tony perfected the quantum version of time travel, because Tony does that during the period in which Strange is dead. Nothing in the movie after Strange comes back pauses to explain to the previously dead characters about the time travel element. That's why Quill is so surprised to see Gamora in the battle, because he doesn't know that it is 2014 Gamora and assumes upon seeing her that she has been resurrected as well.

So either:

a) During Infinity War, when he was viewing the possible futures, Doctor Strange essentially saw the entire Endgame movie, including the parts for which he wasn't alive;

or

b) He did not see the five years in between his death and resurrection, but saw himself being told that Tony perfected the time travel at some point.

or

c) He did not know that Tony perfected the time travel, but did know Tony snapped Thanos out of existence and therefore had to be alive for that.

I just got back from the move for the third time and again loved it. It's really amazing how much terrific character work is done in here, especially since they have so many characters to deal with, but pretty much everyone who is alive at the beginning of the film gets a lot of great stuff to do, and even several of the snap victims get great moments upon returning..

I watched the first Iron Man last night for the first time in a long time, and it's amazing to think that something as massive as this was in the future for Tony Stark. That original film felt very grounded and realistic (up to a point for what they were doing), and if you had told me then that Tony was eventually going to go to space to fight a big purple dude and get a moon thrown at him before almost dying in space, I wouldn't have believed that would work organically in the world that they created in the first film. But of course it totally does work. Seeing two films from two distinctly different periods back-to-back underscores what a massive worldbuilding achievement the MCU is And yet Jarvis makes a sarcastic remark about needing to improve the suit "if you intend to visit other planets" right there in the first movie. That makes me wonder if that was seeded into the first one deliberately, or if they reverse-engineered Infinity War sending him to space to take advantage of that foreshadowing. There's also a reference to the Walt Disney Concert Hall in the first Iron Man, which was before Marvel was acquired by Disney.

In terms of small details, I hadn't noticed before that the storage area in which the van is being kept has the name "Lang" on it. So who put the van there? As in, how did it get from where they were working at the end of Ant-Man and the Wasp when the snap happened into storage Did Cassie do that? Since she's not of age, I'm not sure she could have rented a storage unit. Would her mom and stepfather have wanted to bother with storing Hank's van?

Also, we know from the post-credits scene that Scott went down to the Quantum Realm to get healing particles for Ava/Ghost, and he says he secured them before he expected Hank, Hope and Janet to pull him out. What happened to Ava during the snap? If she survived the snap, she wouldn't have gotten the healing particles when she needed them because of Scott being trapped for five years of Earth time. If she did get snapped and came back, they might be able to resume their attempt to help her now. Presumably the third Ant-Man movie will have to pick up this story. Also, if Scott was down in the Quantum Realm for five hours but Earth had five years, then why does Janet actually look like she aged 30 years while she was trapped in there? I mean, I know that she was down there way longer than Scott was, but still. Some more specificity about the Quantum Realm in the third Ant-Man would be welcome.

That's the beauty of the shared universe / worldbuilding / long-form storytelling framework...there's so much to distill, to conjecture, and to question...

Also watched Iron Man yesterday as well... and it's certainly got a bit more of an adult edge to it compared to later entries. For example, while some of the early scenes are to establish Tony as a charming playboy type, his cavorting with various women in the beginning (at the casino, with the reporter played by Leslie Bibb, and then the playful dancing around poles on his plane while getting drunk with Rhodes) imparts a more "risque" element to the movie that's either toned down or is not even present in the more recent entries. Maybe the gradual shift in tone is due to a natural development of his character (he is, after all, a father in Endgame), but it's certainly more noticeable now that the MCU is 22 entries strong.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I don't think it's necessarily true that just because the Ancient One couldn't see beyond her own death to mean that Doctor Strange couldn't. Doctor Strange is an extraordinarily powerful individual, who, in the course of a year in his solo movie, manages to master the mystic arts to be on the level of the Ancient One, who presumably took decades if not centuries to hone her craft.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

This is interesting because if Doctor Strange could not see the period in between his death and his resurrection, he would not have known that Tony perfected the quantum version of time travel, because Tony does that during the period in which Strange is dead. Nothing in the movie after Strange comes back pauses to explain to the previously dead characters about the time travel element.

But does Doctor Strange need to know the specifics? All he needs to know is that the Avengers get their hands on all of the Infinity Stones in some version, and Tony develops his own gauntlet and uses it to wipe out Thanos and his army.

And then it gets trickier: Does Doctor Strange know that five years have gone by because my theory is wrong and he could see the intervening five years? Or does he know that five years have gone by because in this possible future he saw himself telling Peter Parker that five years have gone by?

 

[holtge]

Honestly, I think that Doctor Strange could see the five years he was 'dusted,' because technically, he didn't die. It was as if he had never existed in the first place. Therefore, I believe he could see everything that would play out up to and including his dusting, re-assembling, and ultimately bringing the rest of the Avengers to the final battle. The line that Peter gives us in Endgame when he says that, "Doctor Strange says it's been five years and you guys needed our help," is a dead giveaway.

My only question now is what happens to the Eye of Agamotto now that the original stones have been destroyed and the ones from the past have all been returned? How can Doctor Strange protect Earth without that important tool?

 

[Jake Lipson]

My only question now is what happens to the Eye of Agamotto now that the original stones have been destroyed and the ones from the past have all been returned? How can Doctor Strange protect Earth without that important tool?

I think that will be a central issue in the Doctor Strange sequel.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Strange could have used a different spell in conjunction with the Time Stone to look at the different possible futures, and/or his abilities surpassed those of the Ancient One.

The Ancient One may not have even used the Time Stone to peer into her future. She could have used an entirely different method to look into the future for all we know. Strange was looking into millions of possible futures to determine which course was the best to beat Thanos, whether or not he was alive in them. The Ancient One just seemed to have looked into her own personal future, and that stopped at her death. So she may have been doing something else entirely than Strange did which didn’t even require the Time Stone.

Bottom line is there isn’t enough information either way to fully understand that one statement she made to Strange about this.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I had a thought:

@Josh Steinberg has talked in other threads about how you can't have a personal service contract for more than seven years in California, and this is why Paramount needed to re-negociate with the stars of Star Trek Beyond before making that, because the lengthy delays between production of the recent Trek films led to those contracts being up. (I'm tagging you here so that you can correct anything I might be remembering incorrectly, since it was a while ago that we had this discussion.)

For the sake of this argument, let's assume that the cast of Doctor Strange (the solo film) signed on sometime in late 2014/early 2015, which seems reasonable because the first film came out in November 2016.

Obviously, Benedict Cumberbatch has appeared since then in his Thor Ragnarok cameo, pus Infinit War and Endgame. What about the rest of the cast of the solo film? We know that Doctor Strange 2 is on Marvel's docket, but most people seem to think that the two 2020 films are Black Widow and either The Eternals or Shang-Chi. It appears that Doctor Strange 2 is a little further back, so it could shoot in 2020 for 2021 release.

If that's the case, it would seem to be a close call on retaining the rest of the cast under their original deals, depending on when they signed those deals. I'm thinking about people like Rachel McAdams and Chewatel Ejiofor, who were major players in the Strange film but whom we have not seen since. I assume Cumberbatch is safe because he might have renegotiated at some point, or if he hasn't, he will. They can't do it without him.

I'm curious, though, if we'll still see the others. Ejiofor was teased as a potential villain for the sequel in the post-credits scene, so it would be unusual not to pick up that thread. McAdams could probably be like Natalie Portman and essentially disappear if it came to that. But obviously, it depends on what form the Strange sequel ends up taking as to who they would need. If Ejiofor is the villain, they'd need to explain why he waited all the way through Infinity War and Endgame (not to mention the five-year time jump) to make a move, and what he's been doing in the interim.

 

[Joe Wong]

I had a thought:

@Josh Steinberg has talked in other threads about how you can't have a personal service contract for more than seven years in California, and this is why Paramount needed to re-negociate with the stars of Star Trek Beyond before making that, because the lengthy delays between production of the recent Trek films led to those contracts being up. (I'm tagging you here so that you can correct anything I might be remembering incorrectly, since it was a while ago that we had this discussion.)

For the sake of this argument, let's assume that the cast of Doctor Strange (the solo film) signed on sometime in late 2014/early 2015, which seems reasonable because the first film came out in November 2016.

Obviously, Benedict Cumberbatch has appeared since then in his Thor Ragnarok cameo, pus Infinit War and Endgame. What about the rest of the cast of the solo film? We know that Doctor Strange 2 is on Marvel's docket, but most people seem to think that the two 2020 films are Black Widow and either The Eternals or Shang-Chi. It appears that Doctor Strange 2 is a little further back, so it could shoot in 2020 for 2021 release.

If that's the case, it would seem to be a close call on retaining the rest of the cast under their original deals, depending on when they signed those deals. I'm thinking about people like Rachel McAdams and Chewatel Ejiofor, who were major players in the Strange film but whom we have not seen since. I assume Cumberbatch is safe because he might have renegotiated at some point, or if he hasn't, he will. They can't do it without him.

I'm curious, though, if we'll still see the others. Ejiofor was teased as a potential villain for the sequel in the post-credits scene, so it would be unusual not to pick up that thread. McAdams could probably be like Natalie Portman and essentially disappear if it came to that. But obviously, it depends on what form the Strange sequel ends up taking as to who they would need. If Ejiofor is the villain, they'd need to explain why he waited all the way through Infinity War and Endgame (not to mention the five-year time jump) to make a move, and what he's been doing in the interim.

I wonder what Benjamin Wong (who plays, well, Wong!) negotiated since he was in both IW and EndGame.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Wong

Good question. Because his role was so brief in Endgame especially, they might try not to count it as two. I'm pretty sure, for example, that Chris Evans' cameo in The Dark World, where he was on screen for a few seconds when Loki transformed into Captain America, did not count against Evans' deal because it was so minor. (I don't mean to imply that he wasn't paid for it, because he obviously was, but there's a difference between that and a film in which he has a substantial amount of screen time.) In any case, I fully expect Wong to come back for Doctor Strange 2. If they need to renegotiate with him, they will. The fact that he was in Infinity War and Endgame demonstrates that he is a critical ongoing character for Doctor Strange.

I would think that when Marvel reveals its slate, which for sure has Doctor Strange 2 on it somewhere, we might get more information about which cast members from the original film are returning for it. I don't think they're going to give plot spoilers, but I also don't think they would attempt to hide if famous people we already know are in that series are coming back.

On another note, has anyone else here seen Endgame since they added the Far From Home trailer to the end of the credits? My viewing today was the first time I've seen it since that add-on occurred.

I knew this was coming because I'd read about it online, but I thought the clip with Tom Holland added to the opening trailer scroll was sort of hilarious. The purpose of this was to tell people to stay after to see the Endgame trailer, which makes sense. But he said: "Hi guys, it's Tom Holland here. I bet you weren't expecting to see me, but you were expecting to see the new Spider-Man: Far From Home trailer. Well, the Far From Home trailer will be playing at the end of the credits. Why? Because we didn't want to spoil Endgame for you. So, enjoy, and I'll see you after the credits."

I thought this was an odd way of phrasing this because no one who has the slightest clue what's going on with Endgame would have expected a trailer featuring an alive Peter Parker (not to mention references to dead Iron Man) to show up on the front of Endgame. It got the message across, but struck me as bizarre.

(Also, disclaimer: I'm quoting it from memory from having seen it at about ~11:30 this morning. I'm pretty sure that's what he said, but it might not be a word-for-word transcript. If I did happen to get a couple words wrong, it was still something pretty close to that.)

 

[Hanson]

I wonder what Benjamin Wong (who plays, well, Wong!) negotiated since he was in both IW and EndGame.

Benedict Wong. Pointed out because, what are the chances that two Benedicts star in the same movie and the one named Wong plays Wong?

 

[Malcolm R]

I'm not sure much of the audience identifies those particular actors with their roles after one film. Aside from Cumberbatch and Swinton, who have now appeared in multiple films, you could probably swap out any of the other actors with different people in those same roles and much of the audience likely would not notice.

 

[AshJW]

. If Ejiofor is the villain, they'd need to explain why he waited all the way through Infinity War and Endgame (not to mention the five-year time jump) to make a move, and what he's been doing in the interim

He was probably also dusted.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Variety has a good interview with Chris Hemsworth about both Endgame and Men in Black:

https://variety.com/2019/film/featu...s-thor-men-in-black-international-1203225799/

 

[Jake Lipson]

He was probably also dusted.

That absolutely works for the five-year period, but what was he doing between the end of Doctor Strange and the dusting? They'll have to account for that.

 

[Chip_HT]

That absolutely works for the five-year period, but what was he doing between the end of Doctor Strange and the dusting? They'll have to account for that.

I don't think there is that much time between the two movies. The events of the Dr. Strange movie took place over an extended period of time (probably overlapping other movies). The end of Dr. Strange could take place rather close to Thor: Ragnarok, which takes place really close to the beginning of Infinity War. Meanwhile, it's possibly that all of the MCU movies released between now and 2024 could all take place within the first year post-Endgame.

Short version, it's probably not that much longer than the time between regular sequels.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

That absolutely works for the five-year period, but what was he doing between the end of Doctor Strange and the dusting? They'll have to account for that.

His big grievance was there were just too damn many sorcerers. The Snap solved that problem to his satisfaction. Then the events of Endgame reintroduced the problem when all of those dead sorcerers were brought back.