Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS ALLOWED THREAD (1 Viewer)

[Jake Lipson]

Time to move on from people "blasting" their powers at other people.

You're entitled to like it or not like it however you feel. But I think that "people blasting their powers at other people" is a reductive view of what happens in this film.

Thor is fat because he had a mental breakdown after losing on an unprecedented scale. He was supposed to win Infinity War; he was supposed to kill Thanos and prevent the snap. He went through hell to get the tool to do this, and he knew he could do it, but he missed. Then when he did kill Thanos, it didn't do any good and he was just "an idiot with an axe." Of course he would not take that well. I would have been more upset if he brushed it off and acted like everything was fine.

Hulk "barely being Hulk" and merging his two personalities is a progression of his arc through Ragnarok (where he was Hulk for three years) and Infinity War (where Banner and Hulk being at odds with each other prevented him from being much use against Thanos.)

Tony making the sacrifice play is very much a culmination of the arc he has had throughout these films. In the first Avengers film, Steve chides him for not being willing to make the sacrifice play when it's his life on the line, and here, he does that. He's always been about preventing disaster so that they can go home in peace; giving up his peaceful home in order for the rest of the world to be saved is absolutely the heroic moment with which he deserved to go out.

On the other hand, growing old with Peggy is all that Steve ever wanted. He had to give it up the '40s and (as far as he knew at the time) go to his death. Then, he woke up and became an Avenger and was thrust back into service for the good of the rest of the world, rather than doing anything for himself. Letting him do something for himself for once and take back the life he was originally denied is the best thing they could have done to end his arc.

 

[KeithAP]

Where is a snap when you need it.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I did a google search and apparently there is going to be another CA movie that explains what happened. Not thrilled with that explanation but I guess the money train has to keep chugging along.

That is absolutely false. No further Captain America films have been scheduled for release at this point in time. The only Marvel title that has been officially announced and dated for release after Endgame is Spider-Man: Far From Home in July. Marvel has other projects in various stages of development but has not made an official announcement about their slate. I see no reason to expect a Captain America 4 with Chris Evans anytime soon. Endgame seems designed to give him a great exit, and that's what it did.

Steve aged because he stayed in the past and aged naturally over the course of his life with Peggy Carter. I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand, since I thought it was very clear.

 

[Robert Crawford]

That is absolutely false. No further Captain America films have been scheduled for release at this point in time. The only Marvel title that has been officially announced and dated for release after Endgame is Spider-Man: Far From Home in July. Marvel has other projects in various stages of development but has not made an official announcement about their slate. I see no reason to expect a Captain America 4 with Chris Evans anytime soon. Endgame seems designed to give him a great exit, and that's what it did.

Steve aged because he stayed in the past and aged naturally over the course of his life with Peggy Carter. I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand, since I thought it was very clear.

Do you think your response was kind of harsh?

 

[Jake Lipson]

Do you think your response was kind of harsh?

It didn't read that way to me. It's just a statement of fact. Marvel hasn't announced anything post-Far From Home.

However, if it read as harsh to others then I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

 

[Robert Crawford]

It didn't read that way to me. It's just a statement of fact. Marvel hasn't announced anything post-Far From Home.

However, if it read as harsh to others then I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

No big deal, but it came off a bit harsh to me especially your last sentence.

 

[Jake Lipson]

No big deal, but it came off a bit harsh to me especially your last sentence.

I thought the movie made very clear as to why Steve aged. If that was not clear to Keith, I'd sincerely love to know why and/or how it could have been explained by the film better. This isn't meant to be harsh; from my point of view, the last scenes with Steve hit all the beats they needed to in a clear fashion. No shade at all, but I'm genuinely curious about Keith's different response to it in terms of what else the film needed to do or could have done to get its point across in a more effective way for him. It is my hope that this this prompts discussion; I wasn't trying to shut his point of view down or in any way take it away from him as invalid. It's just a different response than I had to it, and I don't think the Russos intended us to wonder why Steve aged because in my view they answered it. Sso I'm curious about how the film could have been improved to further clarify the answer to that question.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I didn't really get how Captain America was able to age. I did a google search and apparently there is going to be another CA movie that explains what happened. Not thrilled with that explanation but I guess the money train has to keep chugging along.

I saw the movie this afternoon with my sister, we were the only two people in the theater. It was movie paradise.

-Keith

Why wouldn’t Rogers age? No one ever said or even implied that the Super Soldier serum made him immortal.

His transformation made him strong and essentially enhanced him in every way, so much so that he was able to survive being frozen for 70 years. So sure it’s not unreasonable to think that he probably would age BETTER than a normal person, but immortal? Nah. At the end he was roughly 115ish but only looked maybe 85ish. I think that right there showed the aging benefits he got from the serum.

I’d LOVE another Captain America movie. Anyone who enjoys this character would. But at the moment it’s nothing more than wishful thinking. The directors have said that there’s obviously an interesting story that could be told about Steve’s life in the past. There’s a HUGE difference between saying that and saying that they are doing another movie with Cap. No one has said that.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I thought the movie made very clear as to why Steve aged. If that was not clear to Keith, I'd sincerely love to know why and/or how it could have been explained by the film better. This isn't meant to be harsh; from my point of view, the last scenes with Steve hit all the beats they needed to in a clear fashion. No shade at all, but I'm genuinely curious about Keith's different response to it in terms of what else the film needed to do or could have done to get its point across in a more effective way for him. It is my hope that this this prompts discussion; I wasn't trying to shut his point of view down or in any way take it away from him as invalid. It's just a different response than I had to it, and I don't think the Russos intended us to wonder why Steve aged because in my view they answered it. Sso I'm curious about how the film could have been improved to further clarify the answer to that question.

I could be wrong, but I think he may have been under the impression that having the Super Soldier serum treatment meant that Steve doesn’t age. Like if he lived for 200 years he’s still expected to look 35. That’s not right, but if someone thought that then that would explain the confusion about why he got old over the 75-80 ish years he lived after he stepped on the platform.

Otherwise, yeah, the movie was pretty clear that he went back to the 40’s and lived his life up until he caught up with the movie again in 2023. So the amount of time that passed should’t be a point of confusion. But misunderstanding how his super soldier enhanced body works is understandable if someone made that incorrect assumption.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I could be wrong, but I think he may have been under the impression that having the Super Soldier serum treatment meant that Steve doesn’t age. Like if he lived for 200 years he’s still expected to look 35. That’s not right, but if someone thought that then that would explain the confusion about why he got old over the 75-80 ish years he lived after he stepped on the platform.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[TJPC]

The impression that he does not age comes from the fact that he lived in the 1940s and in the 2000s while being the same physical age. He did not age then because he made the transition while frozen. When he lived a “normal life” with Peggy, he aged.

 

[Jake Lipson]

On a different note, I've been waiting to buy the Endgame score until it was available in physical CD format. The MP3s have been out since the film debuted. But in case anyone else here is in the same boat as me, I just wanted to remind you that the actual disc is being released tomorrow, May 24.

I just got my shipping notice from Amazon for it. As is sometimes but not always the case, they were smart enough to combine multiple separate orders into the same shipment. So the soundtracks for Endgame and Aladdin are coming together.

(I miss the days when you could get Disney Movie Rewards points for CD purchases. I'd get a big boost tomorrow with those two both arriving together if they were still doing that.)

 

[Jake Lipson]

My copy of the physical CD for Endgame came today.

It has 28 tracks and runs 1 hour and 18 minutes.

According to Amazon, the digital release runs 1 hour and 56 minutes and has 33 tracks.

So those of us who prefer CDs get gypped out of 38 additional minutes of music. And unlike when Disney holds back Blu-ray extras for a digital copy version, there's no code included with the CD to download the extra tracks. I could buy the seven missing tracks individually for $1.29 apiece, but that would total out to $9.03 + tax, which is almost as much as I paid for the CD ($9.99.) The entire digital album is only $11.49, so that's clearly a better deal, except that a) I didn't notice the difference until I actually got the CD, and b) it still screws people over who like CDs.

It's really depressing that the #2 film of all time -- possibly the #1 film of all time -- can't get a 2-disc CD release. It's not like Marvel is lacking for money on this title.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Screen Junkies did a really fascinating deep dive into the real-world ramifications of the snap.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Screen Junkies did a really fascinating deep dive into the real-world ramifications of the snap.

All of the disruption they talked about points to why I really hope MCU post-snap 2023 isn't just more or less the same as real world 2019.

I know that the fallout of billions of people turning to dust and then being resurrected five years later probably won't be the focal point of the Phase 4 films, but I hope it's grappled with more than just a few throwaway lines of dialogue.

At minimum, the third Ant-Man movie will have to tackle him being separated from Cassie for five years, and what her circumstances were during that time. Did both her mom and stepfather survive the Snap? Did one of them? Did anything happen to either of them during the five years of instability that followed? Even best case scenario, going from having a 10 or 11 year old daughter in grade school to having a 16 year old daughter in high school who's seen some shit in the interim is a major adjustment.

The second Black Panther will have to deal with what happened while the royal family was gone. Did M'Baku become king in T'Challa's absence? Did Wakanda abolish the monarchy and institute a republic or some other form of government? Now that the royal family's back, is Wakanda going to embrace them in their old roles as if nothing had happened? Or is there going to be another succession struggle?

 

[Wayne_j]

I was just about to post the screen junkies video. I have previously seen a video, that I'm not sure where it was, analyzing how food production would have greatly decreased following the snap and the sudden reappearance of everyone would lead to a massive world wide food shortage.

Tony's insistence that they don't take his daughter away by making the first snap never happen and instead have everyone return after a five year absence might have doomed the planet.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Tony's insistence that they don't take his daughter away by making the first snap never happen and instead have everyone return after a five year absence might have doomed the planet.

Well, according to Doctor Strange, there was no other way that they could win. So, it was either bring the dead back in 2023 or have them stay dead. I realize that Tony didn't know that while making his request to keep Morgan alive, but we know via Strange that if they had tried to prevent the snap from ever happening, they would have failed.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Right now, the world produces vastly more food than it consumes. Farmers in the United States are actually paid not to grow crops, to keep the supply down and prices up. So while there might be a shortage of fresh meat, diary, and produce in the short term, I doubt there would be massive famine worldwide. I wouldn't be surprised if the governments of the world imposed rationing until production could be ramped up again, though.

Well, according to Doctor Strange, there was no other way that they could win. So, it was either bring the dead back in 2023 or have them stay dead. I realize that Tony didn't know that while making his request to keep Morgan alive, but we know via Strange that if they had tried to prevent the snap from ever happening, they would
have failed.

I think it's just as likely that this was the only way they could win because it was the only terms under which Tony would agree to participate. There were probably scenarios in which they could have succeeded by undoing the Snap at the moment it happened, rewriting the past five years, but Tony wouldn't have agreed to participate in those. And Tony was the only one who could figure out time travel via the Quantum Realm, so the solution that happened was the only one that was practical.

Incidentally, I think the necessity of Tony being alive to perfect the quantum version of time travel is the reason Doctor Strange sacrificed himself and the Time Stone to save Tony.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I was thinking about that, and also, the gauntlet at the end of the movie.

Tony is able to get the stones from Thanos because Thanos, without realizing what he’s doing, puts on a glove made of Stark’s nanotech. Then, as they wrestle, Stark’s suit is able to interface with the glove’s nanotech and command it to transfer the stones. The new gauntlet and the iron man suit were one and the same.

No one else could have done that either. And Thanos, with all of his ego, always so focused on the idea that he alone had the might and right to control the stones, never considered that something as simple as the damn glove could bring him down.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Incidentally, I think the necessity of Tony being alive to perfect the quantum version of time travel is the reason Doctor Strange sacrificed himself and the Time Stone to save Tony.

Yes. I think you are right about that, and I think what Josh wrote above me is also right. And we also know that Strange saw Tony sacrificing himself by snapping Thanos' army out of existence because of how he signaled to Tony prior to this happening. So he knew Tony had to be alive for that moment to happen, as well. I don't think Steve Rodgers, for example, would have been comfortable snapping his fingers and commanding the stones to mass murder Thanos' army, even though Thanos did that to them. It's just not in his character to do something like that regardless of the circumstances. Tony wouldn't have any qualms about such.

Though, the Ancient One said in Doctor Strange that she couldn't see past her own death, so how can Strange? He seems to have exceeded her abilities in a relatively short amount of time, versus how long she was doing his job before he came along.

I'm seeing the movie again tomorrow so will come back after that with any additional observations.