Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS ALLOWED THREAD

[Jake Lipson]

Title: Avengers: Endgame (2019)

Tagline: Part of the journey is the end.

Genre: Adventure, Science Fiction, Action

Director: Joe Russo, Anthony Russo

Release: 2019-04-24

Runtime: 181

Plot: After the devastating events of Avengers: Infinity War, the universe is in ruins due to the efforts of the Mad Titan, Thanos. With the help of remaining allies, the Avengers must assemble once more in order to undo Thanos' actions and restore order to the universe once and for all, no matter what consequences may be in store.

DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ENDGAME!

Since we had a very lengthy and detailed separate spoilers thread for Infinity War last year, I thought I'd also set up a dedicated spoilers thread for Endgame. It will be easier to discuss this big of a movie without spoiler tags.

I'll be seeing it in a few hours, but since people on the other coast will get out before I get home, I thought I would set this up now.

See you all on the other side of the movie.

I couldn't set this up with the system we currently have, because when I did that, the system automatically put out the post in the old thread.

 

[Nigel P]

Hail Hydra.

 

[AshJW]

I was very pleased with the solution of the conflict.
Also the various visits of the past. A very nice conclusion of the three phases.

Ups, it‘s close to midnight. I go to bed.

 

[Wayne_j]

Hail Hydra.

This along with capt. using the hammer were among my favorite parts of the movie.

 

[Jeff Adkins]

It's a very good film. It definitely wouldn't make my Top 5 MCU Films, but it's not far below that.

Pros
- Stunning Visuals
- Terrific performances by pretty much everyone
- Strong, believable narrative
- It has Thanos, one of the best villians ever
- Not having a post or mid-credit scene was fitting in this case
- The first hour of the film is one of the best hours in any MCU film. I love the slow build setup. I've heard others say the film is too slow to get going, but I strongly disagree.

Cons
- The third hour seemed a little bloated and repetitive in spots (that action scene near the end of the film seemed to go on forever)
- There's way too many one-liners. Especially in the 2nd hour. It's almost as if they were trying to make this a comedy.
- Captain Marvel looks about 15 years older with that new haircut

Overall, it's a fun ride and I plan on seeing it again in IMAX 3-D (tonight was Dolby Cinema).

 

[Josh Steinberg]

“I am Iron Man.”

That felt right.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

It really did feel like the series finale to this epic 22-episode series. Albeit one with plenty of seeds planted for the sequel series to come.

I managed to go into this only having seen a handful of trailers and one brief clip from early on. I'm so happy I made it to the movie without having anything major spoiled. It seems like I've inadvertantly been exposed to at least one significant spoiler from all of the other major event films.

I really don't know where to rank this yet. I don't think it's the best movie in the series, but it's such a satisfying conclusion. Like Jeff said, the first hour of the film was among the best of any hours in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I loved just about everything they played off how Infinity War ended. Right up until they go back in time is really just terrific filmmaking, and very unconventional for a major modern blockbuster.

I called all of Clint's family dying right after Infinity War ended, because it was the most dramatically interesting way to bring him back into the story. I didn't anticipate the shot from the trailer being a "present day" scene though; only three years is supposed to have transpired between Age of Ultron (when Clint's daughter was four, maybe five and his youngest son had just been born). But Lila was a teenager in this, maybe 12 at the youngest. And the youngest kid was probably in first or second grade. Their ages make sense if they'd lived that five years, but having been brought back exactly as they were they're all a few years too old. Regardless of that continuity issue, though, it really was heartbreaking.

I really appreciated the theory of time travel put forth by this movie, in which their interventions into the past weren't overwriting their own histories; instead each intervention created a new reality. It means that back in "our" reality, everything that happened in these 22 movies actually happened. I also appreciated that they didn't undo the five-year time jump. For the people that got turned to ash with the Snap, it's as if nothing happened. But everybody who survived the snap still has to carry the memory of those five years with them. Some of them have moved on and remarried. The babies that were born after the Snap, including Tony and Pepper's young daughter, still exist. The world still bears the history and the scars of those five years. It's like the concept behind "Manifest" on NBC, if half the world's population had been on board the plane.

For all of the talk about Infinity War being undone, there's a surprising amount that stuck. Thanos's Snap continues to reverberate. And three of our original core six Avengers are no longer in service, with Tony dead, Natasha with OG Gamora wherever the Soul Stone takes the sacrificed, and Captain America an old man who lived in one of the alternate realities the full life he was denied in this one. It does raise questions about how the Black Widow movie will proceed; it seems strange to make a movie about a dead character. I hope Chris Evans appears in the future as Old Man Steve, giving advice to Sam and Bucky when they need it.

If the age of Clint's kids got fudged a bit, I think they got the timeline for Cassie Lang dead on; she's 10 or 11 in Ant-Man and the Wasp, and she's 15 or 16 after the time jump. I'm going to miss Abby Ryder Fortson in that role, because her and Paul Rudd were great together, but I can see why they wanted to go older with the character so they can give her more to do.

A surprising amount of humor in this movie, but also a lot of wonderful sincerely played character moments.

Some of the things in the movie either demonstrated remarkable foresight or remarkable ingenuity on the part of the filmmakers; I always thought it was weird in Thor: The Dark World when we see Frigga excuse herself from her entourage, and then the scene just sort of ends with no follow-up. Even though fat Thor's arrival with Rocket means that the scene played out differently in this new reality, it's amazing how neatly they filled in the blank there.

It's also amazing how many big name supporting players they got back. I thought the cast list for Infinity War was insane, and it was. But the cast list for Endgame is really, really insane: In addition to Renee Russo, you got William Hurt, Natalie Portman, Frank Grillo, Robert Redford, Linda Cardinelli, Tilda Swinton, Marisa Tomei, Tessa Thompson, Angela Bassett, Hiroyuki Sanada, Ken Jeong and Yvette Nicole Brown. And that's not even including the headliners -- of which there are 34, the vast majority of whom have headlined their own movies in the past.

Loved the cameo by James D'Arcy as Edwin Jarvis, reprising his role from "Agent Carter". It might be the first time a Marvel Studios feature film has referenced a Marvel Television production, instead of the other way around. And the Lola deaging technology was interesting this time around, taking John Slattery today and creating a Howard Stark in between Dominic Cooper's Howard Stark from Captain America: The First Avenger and "Agent Carter" and the Slattery Howard Stark from the Iron Man 2 film recordings.

Really loved how they saved the credits for the original core six Avengers to the end, and included their signatures. It felt like the cinematic equivalent of taking a bow at the end of an acclaimed and beloved stage production.

 

[Wayne_j]

I really need to rewatch this to get my head around the time traveling. There is no way that Steve spending his life with Peggy would not have changed everything.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I really need to rewatch this to get my head around the time traveling. There is no way that Steve spending his life with Peggy would not have changed everything.

The way I understood it -- and I was not at my most attentive -- Stark's time travel technology was like a tether between quantum realities. At one end is the reality that we've spent 22 films investing in. But on the other end is multiple different alternate realities that branched off from "ours", The devices on the suits hold the GPS coordinates for a time and place in both realities.

The Battle of New York that Tony, Steve, Bruce, and Scott went back to was one alternate reality. The Asgard that Thor and Rocket went back to was another reality. The Morag that Natasha, Clint, Nebula, and Rhodes visit was a third alternate reality. The 1970 New Jersey that Tony and Steve went back to was yet another alternate reality. Because they had the coordinates, they could return to the realities on either end once the connection was established. But the very act of establishing the connection created a new reality.

After returning the borrowed Time Stones to the alternate realities where they came from, Steve either returned to the 1970 reality or he created another new alternate reality by going back in time even further. He lived out his life in that other alternate reality, with that reality's Peggy Carter. Presumably once she passed away, he finally returned home to his reality of origin. But all those extra decades occurred on a different timeline in a different reality.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think it actually works. We know she gets married but we don’t know who her husband is. I can buy that it’s Steve Rogers but that that information is kept secret from everyone.

I’d love if this led somewhere to a one-off period piece with Steve and Peggy together again. Not holding my breath but I love that the possibility now exists should everyone involved ever have the desire to do so.

I liked the no post-credits thing. It seemed very appropriate.

I really wish that Spider-Man: Far From Home hadn’t been announced and released until after this came out. Because Tony was Peter’s mentor, it was obvious he should have been in Far From Home unless he was dead. And he’s not in Far From Home. For me, Tony’s death was 100% spoiled by the existence of another movie that simply didn’t need to be coming out so soon were it not for Sony’s greed.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I really wish that Spider-Man: Far From Home hadn’t been announced and released until after this came out. Because Tony was Peter’s mentor, it was obvious he should have been in Far From Home unless he was dead. And he’s not in Far From Home. For me, Tony’s death was 100% spoiled by the existence of another movie that simply didn’t need to be coming out so soon were it not for Sony’s greed.

I figured that Tony was going to die, because it felt like the character's story was coming to an end, and Robert Downey Jr. is the most expensive salary of the bunch and, a 54, getting a bit long in tooth to be pummeling bad guys. So that part didn't bother me.

What it fascinating is that the reversal of the Snap didn't undo the five years that occurred after the Snap. So the future of the MCU is basically going to be going from 2023 forward. Presumably Far From Home takes place in 2023. And when Peter hugged Ned at the end, it looked like Ned was aged up to be in his early twenties -- so perhaps he survived the snap. But in the Far From Home trailers, it looked like he was the same age as Peter again. And we know that Michelle, Flash Thompson, and Betty Brant are on the field trip with him. So they presumably all succumbed to the Snap.

It also raises interesting questions: Are their classes a mix of kids they've grown up with who succumbed to the Snap, and kids who used to be five years younger but survived the Snap? How did the educational system fare during those five years when everybody was missing?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I like how Loki managed to slip away, presumably into his new Disney+ show.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Re: the time travel and alternate universes, what I took (and I could be fuzzy on this too) is that an alternate universe would only be created if the stones weren’t returned. By returning them, that ensured that time would flow as it always had rather than creating new universes.

But you have to wonder...Loki disappeared with the tesseract in 2012, which would have prevented him from being in Asgard during the events from Thor: The Dark World, etc. So perhaps at least one alternate universe was formed just the same. And Gamora didn’t live in the past to be sacrificed for Thanos to get the soul stone. And Thanos didn’t survive in his own timeline to make the first snap happen. So, while the Avengers succeeded, they made more of a mess of time than might be readily apparent.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Also... like the idea that Thor could be in Guardians 3. I hope so.

 

[Simon Massey]

When they announced Spider-Man : Far from Home was an epilogue to the current phase that’s when I suspected it was Tony who was going to die because I figured an epilogue suggests there is some coming to terms with the previous events and surely Tony’s death will have the biggest impact on Peter Parker.

The biggest surprise for me was how Black Widows death and I’d be disappointed if they didn’t use her again.

And who doesn’t want a Guardians film with Thor in it. Chris Hemsworth is brilliant in this film and him and Pratt together are really entertaining. That’s the one I’m most looking forward to now.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I guess either a) The Black Widow movie is a prequel or b) Loki taking the tesseract out of NYC in 2012 created an alternate divergent reality where Black Widow is alive.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I had been thinking before this movie came out that this would be the end of me rushing out to see every MCU movie. Now that I’ve seen Endgame, I think that’ll hold true more or less.

I’m interested in seeing Guardians 3 and another Doctor Strange. I’d see most potential films if they starred Avengers from the original run but I can probably wait for Disney+ streaming. I’m less interested in a Captain Marvel sequel, and any of the rumored projects with characters new to the MCU. And I’m very likely to watch Disney+ shows with characters from these MCU films so far, but far less likely to watch any shows with characters debuting on Disney+.

Basically, I’m happy to check in on characters I was already invested in but don’t feel the need to keep up with the next round of intros. I’m not feeling hugely motivated to see Far From Home either.

 

[holtge]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. But could it be possible that Gamora is still alive as well? Star-Lord was looking for her on the monitor at the end of the movie when Thor came aboard his ship. I think GOTG3 might partly be about finding a way to bring her back with Adam's powers? Maybe Black Widow could come back too?

I loved that Steve got to have that dance with Peggy as well. I had assumed that Captain America would ultimately perish at the end of the film, but man, having him get to be happy with Peggy was all kinds of awesome! Oh, and I LOVED that Steve got to use Mjolnir! When Thor saw him wield it and triumphantly say, "I knew it!", I admit I lost it and shed a couple of tears.

Such a satisfying conclusion to the Infinity Gauntlet Saga!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

But could it be possible that Gamora is still alive as well? Star-Lord was looking for her on the monitor at the end of the movie when Thor came aboard his ship.

I assumed he was looking for “2014 Gamora,” who presumably left Earth after the battle, having no connection to anyone that actually fought in it.

 

[holtge]

I assumed he was looking for “2014 Gamora,” who presumably left Earth after the battle, having no connection to anyone that actually fought in it.

Yeah, my wife and I wondered about that too. The last time we saw her was when she kneed Peter in the groin! My wife thinks that maybe she disappeared along with everyone else after Tony's snap, but I'm not so sure.

But anyway, if they don't bring Black Widow back, her movie will most definitely have to be set in the past.