Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS ALLOWED THREAD (1 Viewer)

[Colin Jacobson]

Again, who's films have killed it at the US box office that are non-franchise movies?

Lately? Not really anyone I can think of off the top of my head.

There are non-franchise movies that do really well, but it's hard to come up with any that feature one actor across 2+ of them.

Which is the point: the movie star who can open a movie him/herself seems to be a bygone concept...

 

[Robert Crawford]

Lately? Not really anyone I can think of off the top of my head.

There are non-franchise movies that do really well, but it's hard to come up with any that feature one actor across 2+ of them.

Which is the point: the movie star who can open a movie him/herself seems to be a bygone concept...

This 2018 box office listing says it all.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?p=.htm&yr=2018

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Which is the point: the movie star who can open a movie him/herself seems to be a bygone concept...

Yes, that’s the point I was making.

So how do you measure Gillam’s “star power” (or anyone’s for that matter), when name recognition has little to no bearing on box office results? That’s what I was saying. Gillan’s becoming more well known and that’s a good thing, but there’s probably no amount of famous that she or anyone else could be in 2019 and beyond that would get a movie studio a $100+ million opening on name recognition alone.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Yes, that’s the point I was making.

I don't think many of us are arguing that point as it's been obvious for some years now.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

So how do you measure Gillam’s “star power” (or anyone’s for that matter), when name recognition has little to no bearing on box office results? That’s what I was saying. Gillan’s becoming more well known and that’s a good thing, but there’s probably no amount of famous that she or anyone else could be in 2019 and beyond that would get a movie studio a $100+ million opening on name recognition alone.

They don't even really make star vehicles any more. Instead, the intellectual property is the star vehicle. Chris Hemsworth can't open a picture, but Thor sure can.

The one exception in the MCU is Robert Downey Jr. People don't watch RDJ to watch Tony Stark, they watch Tony Stark for RDJ.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The one exception in the MCU is Robert Downey Jr. People don't watch RDJ to watch Tony Stark, they watch Tony Stark for RDJ.

Agreed. That was such perfect casting from the start.

Downey’s attempts to turn his MCU and Sherlock Holmes successes into non-franchise films hasn’t panned out particularly well either.

All this has me thinking of Francis Ford Coppola, of all people. I just saw him in person at an Apocalypse Now anniversary screening last week. In a span of about five years, he won the Oscar for writing Patton, had two Best Picture winners and commercial hits with Godfather I and II, was nominated for The Conversation... and he couldn’t get financing for Apocalypse Now. Got me wondering about the Russos, Markus and McFeely, and all the other people who made Endgame what it was. They’ve succeeded beyond anyone’s wildest dreams, and yet, I wonder if they’ll find themselves in Coppola’s position anyway, where they can get small passion projects made but might struggle to get someone to bet on a big budget original project from them. I hope not.

 

[Malcolm R]

Studios are probably a bit hesitant to finance any big budget original projects for directors. Just look at the Wachowskis. After wild success with the Matrix trilogy, they went on to have a string of big-budget bombs with Speed Racer, Cloud Atlas, and Jupiter Ascending. Their only project since JA in 2015 has been a TV series.

Though sometimes you get lucky with someone like Christopher Nolan who achieved mainstream success with the Batman trilogy, then went on to create other blockbusters like Inception, Interstellar, and Dunkirk.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think Nolan was both smart and lucky in that he had the early success of Batman Begins and then The Dark Knight, and then was in a position to say, “Want a Dark Knight sequel? Finance Inception first and I’ll do it,” at a time when studios were able to wait longer between installments. I fear if someone in that position tried that today, they’d just get someone else.

But I think Nolan is a great example on how to nurture talent. And Warner kinda turned him into a franchise, which is unique and cool.

I’d love to see the Russos get similar opportunities because their abilities to handle both the big bombast and the character moments is something special and I’d love to see them given the chance to dream big.

 

[Jake Lipson]

If Spider-Man didn't get snapped, than the Homecoming sequels would have had to take place during the five year time jump, with half the world's population gone. I think that could have been the recipe for a really interesting, really unexpected few movies that would have filled in a time period that we're unlikely to revisit too often. But, given the decision to build each of the Homecoming movies around a year of Peter's high school experience, I can see why both Sony and Marvel Studios didn't want to get boxed into never catching up with Endgame.

That is a great point.

Had that been the case, they would also have needed Robert Downy, Jr. to be in any sequels they made that existed prior to Endgame. It wouldn't have made any sense for Tony, whose arc in Homecoming was about learning to trust and value Peter's input, to suddenly disappear from Spider-Man's solo sequel if he were alive within the time period where the sequel took place.

Bringing RDJ back for a prequel to Endgame to be released immediately after Endgame would have absolutely lessened the impact of his character's death, and the fact that Endgame was clearly meant to conclude his run in the MCU.

I agree that it would be interesting to see some storytelling within the five-year gap, but I don't think a whole movie is the solution and I'm glad they did exactly what they did. If Peter was not snapped, but we know the snap is eventually going to be undone, the stakes for any standalone movies in the time jump period are kind of low. However, where they could maybe explore the five-year gap most naturally (if they wanted to) would be flashback sequences in the next Ant-Man movie. This wouldn't have to dominate the narrative, but would give them an opportunity to use Abby Ryder Fortson, who played Cassie in the two previous Ant-Man films. Present-day Cassie could be telling her dad about the experience of the five-year time gap when he was presumed dead. If there are not flashbacks in Ant-Man 3, then Abby Ryder Fortson is out of a job.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Peyton Reed had any input into casting Emma Fuhrmann as the older Cassie. Even though Endgame is not his movie, he'll certainly need to use her in Ant-Man 3, where she will almost surely have a much bigger role to play than the few seconds of screen time she was given here.

The other Marvel directors are not being impacted in that way. James Gunn has his entire cast back (Gamora is a different version of Gamora than was in the previous Guardians films, but she's still played by Zoe Saldana.) Spider-Man, Black Panther and Doctor Strange don't have anyone in their casts who can't just play five years older. But Cassie is a special case because of her young age before the time jump. If possible, it would have been nice to involve Peyton Reed in the decision as far as who replaced Fuhrmann, because it will impact his next movie more than this one. (Again, this assumes that Reed will come back to direct Ant-Man 3, but I don't see any reason to think otherwise.)

 

[Hanson]

It wouldn't be the first time the Russos stepped on Reed's toes - they had the Giant Man scene in Civil War before they could reveal that ability in an Ant Man movie.

 

[ScottHM]

everybody saw "Titanic"!

I haven't seen it.

---------------

 

[Robert Crawford]

I haven't seen it.

---------------

The ship sank.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

However, where they could maybe explore the five-year gap most naturally (if they wanted to) would be flashback sequences in the next Ant-Man movie. This wouldn't have to dominate the narrative, but would give them an opportunity to use Abby Ryder Fortson, who played Cassie in the two previous Ant-Man films. Present-day Cassie could be telling her dad about the experience of the five-year time gap when he was presumed dead. If there are not flashbacks in Ant-Man 3, then Abby Ryder Fortson is out of a job.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Peyton Reed had any input into casting Emma Fuhrmann as the older Cassie. Even though Endgame is not his movie, he'll certainly need to use her in Ant-Man 3, where she will almost surely have a much bigger role to play than the few seconds of screen time she was given here.

I'm thinking they might have a cold open similar to Endgame's with Abby Ryder Fortson, portraying the Snap from Cassie's point of view. And then jump forward to 2023 and deal with the fallout with Fuhrmann's Cassie.

 

[ScottRE]

NEVER underestimate the power of a good love story.

If you're a novelist, it's the bestselling genre.

if you're a screenwriter, integrating a love story into your structure is the BEST way to get your script sold.

I can't make very many claims in this business, but I can make those two.

I stand by my post.

(But I still want End Game to hit #1).

"If only this picture had love interest it would gross twice as much."

 

[ScottRE]

The other Marvel directors are not being impacted in that way. James Gunn has his entire cast back (Gamora is a different version of Gamora than was in the previous Guardians films, but she's still played by Zoe Saldana.)

He may be stuck with Hemsworth, if they follow through on Asgardians of the Galaxy (Zod, I sure hope so). From what I understand, Gunn wrote a lot of the Guardians dialog in Infinity War, at the very least. Actually having 2014 Gamora fall for Thor would be an amazing turn and some great scenes for the Chris' to play off each other.

Is it weird that I'm more excited for that than Spider-Man's film or any of the other films? I wasn't a fan of Homecoming and am only interested in Far From Home to see the fallout of Endgame. I still mourn never seeing where Garfield's Parker was going to go after Gwen's death in The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (a film I Liked a lot more than most people).

 

[ScottRE]

He didn't have any dialogue, but he was in the crowd at Tony's funeral. I'm assuming they shot him against green screen for later insertion into that shot while he was on set to film his Infinity War scenes.

I read somewhere, I think one of the cast said it, that they got all of those people together for that scene. It was a huge undertaking to get them all there, but it wasn't trickery.

As for the cast, even Natalie Portman got her own card for her brief cameo. It felt less like a cast list for this movie but more of a list of major players in the last 22 films.

 

[Tommy R]

I still mourn never seeing where Garfield's Parker was going to go after Gwen's death in The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (a film I Liked a lot more than most people).

I still mourn never seeing more Raimi Spidey movies. I watched Spider-man ‘02 again recently and still can’t believe it never got a proper conclusion. (Or at least a good non-cliffhanger entry.)

 

[Sean Bryan]

I read somewhere, I think one of the cast said it, that they got all of those people together for that scene. It was a huge undertaking to get them all there, but it wasn't trickery.

"They were all actually there and that was perhaps the most [difficult] shot in all four movies that we've done for Marvel," Joe says. "We spent the entire day before we got them all out there with doubles [practicing] executing that shot."

 

[Jake Lipson]

I don't think these have been posted here yet -- sorry if I missed them -- but here are a couple more Russos interview

 

[Carlo_M]

Thanks for sharing that! And now I have confirmation from them that they were at my show on Opening Thursday!

I know the audience went nuts at the end credits when they left, and some were chattering excitedly about it, but I didn't get to see them so I took their sighting with a grain of salt (I wasn't sure the largely college crowd I saw it with knew what the Russos looked like).