Adire Dharman test results from Tom Nousaine... (1 Viewer)

[John Morris]

Can you imagine this? 20-39 20-39A 20-39B and so on.

Not only can I imagine it, I would appreciate and expect it. And, this is not something unusual for the industry. If I see an ad and it says, Parasound 2200 Amp for $500; I say no way. But if that ad says Parasound 2200II Amp for $500, I am pulling out my checkbook. If a manufacturer doesn't change the name when he makes a change in a component that makes it better than those sold before it with the same name, then how is the consumer to know which unit he/she is buying? That's like selling a Lexicon DC-1 and not letting the buyer know that it has v3 and not v4 software. If a change in a component makes it perform better then those sold before it, then it is the duty of the manufacturer to either rename the new unit, or keep quiet about it and not screw up the marketplace. Hell, if I owned a 20-39cs, I'd be calling SVS tomorrow to see if I had one of the good, or one of the better performing subs. If I was buying a used 20-39cs, I'd damn well make sure it was the "new and improved" model or expect a sharp discount in that lesser model. Now, I'm wondering if I should sell my Ultra and buy a "new and improved" Ultra before anyone finds out SVS has improved the new Ultras, and drives the used Ultra market way down...

 

[Martice]

Whew! Hi Jack. Well said and I totally agree. TN's list has been the holy grail around here up until now. I think the list is valid in this respect. It provides a window to see how good a particular sub is or was capable of performing at one time or another.

If it is an older report on a particular sub then so be it and the reader should be advised. I think that it's kind of crappy that someone who bought a sub 1 year or so ago with a given model number may infact have a lesser performing sub of the same model number than someone who bought the same sub today. If the changes aren't big enough to warrant a model change then the list should still be considered valid. However, if the changes are significant to the point that the guy who bought the same model sub a year or so ago may have an inferior product to the same sub bought today, then I say that's not fair at all.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

John ,we're definitely not going to stop striving to improve the CS_Ultra just because you have one. And we're not about to add a new letter to the name whenever we make an improvement either. If this is something you feel is going to drive the value of your SV product down...any good accountant would probably tell you to sell it immediately.

Jack, I think there's a difference between trying to maintain some integrity(accuracy) in the list I've put together over the years...and just throwing your hands up and saying well,if it's not going to be perfect than it's useless.(talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater?)

There's a difference between random advantages that may favor one manufacturer or the other at any given time...and maiking SURE your company has a clear marketing edge over everyone else one the list I've complied.

TV

 

[John Morris]

Martice: Well said!

In other threads where folks have had problems with bottoming out their subs, how do they know which version they have ... and if the newer versions have corrected for that problem?

 

[John Morris]

John ,we're definitely not going to stop striving to improve the CS_Ultra just because you have one. And we're not about to add a new letter to the name whenever we make an improvement either. If this is something you feel is going to drive the value of your SV product down...any good accountant would probably tell you to sell it immediately.

TV: Sorry, but you opened up this can of worms, not me, so please don't get pissy. As for improvement on the Ultra... I thought that was called the SS? SVS making small improvements on their subs while not changing the version number is fine, but when you announced publicly that you did this, you hurt all current SVS sub owners. If I had owned my old pair of SVS 20-39cs subs now, and wanted to sell them to move up to the Ultra(like I did), I might not be able to do so due to SVS driving the used market prices down on older unimproved SVS subs. In the end, that could hurt your sales too. Can you see that?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I think that it's kind of crappy that someone who bought a sub 1 year or so ago with a given model number may infact have a lesser performing sub of the same model number than someone who bought the same sub today.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Martice: Well said!

In other threads where folks have had problems with bottoming out their subs, how do they know which version they have ... and if the newer versions have corrected for that problem?

 

[John Morris]

"nah, I wouldn't want to get anyone mad who purchased one of these a year ago...unless we keep this exact (outdated)design...we'd be crapping on all our past customers"

TV: why is it so hard for you to see that when you make a significant enough change to alter the performance significantly, that you have changed the old sub to a different sub. Call that one "plus"... hey, wait a minute, isn't that what you are doing?

 

[Martice]

"How is this *crappy*? If the performance of the original product met or exceeded the person's expectations...then how is a manufacturer *crapping* on them by striving to improve that product every chance they get from the time the first unit was ever sold?"

No one said that you shouldn't improve the product Tom. Infact, I would expect that from anyone who has a product to sell. However, in this case regarding the TN list that we've all come to know and love, it is still a quick reference guide to how a sub may perform regardless if it's an old entry or a new one. This doesn't mean that the owner of a sub that was bought (in SVS's case) 18 month's ago didn't bring a certain level of satisfaction to the owner when he or she bought it. If the differences are not that major then so be it and regardless of the changes it's still a good old 2039cs then there's no big deal. If the changes are signficant to the point that my 2039cs from a year ago is still the same price as the new one with the same model number but is less of a performer than the new one, than that's what I have a problem with Tom. If the changes to the 2039cs are not that big to warrant a change or adjustment to the original name or something to show that significant changes have been made, then to me the TN list is valid.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>TV: Sorry, but you opened up this can of worms, not me,so please don't get pissy.>>If I had owned my old pair of SVS 20-39cs subs now, and wanted to sell them to move up to the Ultra(like I did), I might not be able to do so due to SVS driving the used market prices down on older unimproved SVS subs. In the end, that could hurt your sales too. Can you see that?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>TV: why is it so hard for you to see that when you make a significant enough change to alter the performance significantly, that you have changed the old sub to a different sub.

 

[John Morris]

If the changes to the 2039cs are not that big to warrant a change or adjustment to the original name or something to show that significant changes have been made, then to me the TN list is valid.

Martice: Wow, you have your thinkin' hat on tonight! Wish I had made that point so succinctly.

 

[Martice]

"I understand your POV John,But if we never wanted to hurt the *resell* of old SV products, we wouldn't have a CS_U line,we wouldn't be using Samsons now(I guess we *crapped* on anyone who purchased a fidek?),we wouldn't have a CS+ line coming out,we wouldn't be working on the PC+ line,we wouldn't have introduced the SS,and we wouldn't be working on a few more surprises we have in store in the upcoming months. I can't even imagining working for SVS and not spending the whole day thinking of ways to improve something...that's what we do... "

As far as the CS+ and PC+ line goes Tom. Why the plus?

Are the changes significant enough to call it a plus as opposed to the CS or the PC?

Just curious to know at what point you decided to give the CS & PC models a plus?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>If the changes are signficant to the point that my 2039cs from a year ago is still the same price as the new one with the same model number but is less of a performer than the new one, than that's what I have a problem with Tom.

 

[John Morris]

I understand your POV John,But if we never wanted to hurt the *resell* of old SV products, we wouldn't have a CS_U line,we wouldn't be using Samsons now(I guess we *crapped* on anyone who purchased a fidek?),we wouldn't have a CS+ line coming out,we wouldn't be working on the PC+ line,we wouldn't have introduced the SS,and we wouldn't be working on a few more surprises we have in store in the upcoming months.

TV: Now I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that by coming out with new products you think you are hurting resale of older ones, or not? Actually, if I understand you, you are making my point for me. Coming out with a CS Ultra, at a higher price, did not hurt the resale value of the 20-39cs. Coming out with an SS, at a higher price, did not hurt the resale value of the Ultra. And coming out with the plus line, at a higher price, will not hurt the resale value of the CS line. Then again, no comment on the Fidek... It is only when you come out with the 20-39cs plus and call it a 20-39cs and sell it at the same price as the 20-39cs, and then announce that older 20-39cs units are inferior to the new ones, do you then hurt the resale value of the 20-39cs. Does that make sense to you?

 

[Martice]

"So if we added a letter to a new sub...you'd be happy? You'd have the same sub,you would have paid the same amount for it...you'd get the same exact performance...but as long as the NEW one has an added letter....you would feel less *crapped on*? I MUST be missing something?"

Now the older sub performs exactley the same as the newer one Tom? When compared to other subs it's not the same beast but now all of a sudden they all perform exactly the same? If they don't perform the same way then show me some how. Give me a plus or something. How about a letter or star on the side. If you want to charge me the same for more performance then that's on you.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>As far as the CS+ and PC+ line goes Tom. Why the plus?>Are the changes significant enough to call it a plus as opposed to the CS or the PC?>Just curious to know at what point you decided to give the CS & PC models a plus

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

I said,

***So if we added a letter to a new sub...you'd be happy? You'd have the same sub,you would have paid the same amount for it...you'd get the same exact performance...but as long as the NEW one has an added letter....you would feel less *crapped on*? I MUST be missing something?"***

>>>Now the older sub performs exactley the same as the newer one Tom?>If they don't perform the same way then show me some how. Give me a plus or something. How about a letter or star on the side. If you want to charge me the same for more performance then that's on you.

 

[Martice]

I never doubted how many hours that yo put into a day Tom. I'm not surprised that you forever strive to improve your products. However, as far as the TN list goes I still take it as valid and until I see a "new and improved" or + sign or press release stating that changes have been made to this model or that model to me it's the same old sub.

Hey if you don't think the improvements to your sub are significant enough to mention then to me the TN list is good and shows the still impressive(but old) measurements of your SVS subs as well as some other old ones as well.

 

[John Morris]

At some point...it simply appears as if you and John are more interested in looking for some mud to drag SV into.

TV: like I've already stated. You started this whole thing when you tried to counter TN's new Dharman data with the "old CS data is invalid because we've significantly improved the CS and the new CS will perform better" statements. I can't speak for Martice, but as a multiple SVS owner, I am just trying to protect my resale value so I might someday, be able to upgrade to an SS. You are correct that you and Ron do work extremely hard at making SVS the success that it is... and one of the things that has made SVS a success is that you listened to your customers. All I am trying to do is give you some good customer advice. As usual, you can take it or leave it.

Now, go to bed... as I'm sure you're tired!