A PEEK AT MIDNIGHT COWBOY (1 Viewer)

[Peter Apruzzese]

And please don't bother me with anything Jeffrey Wells writes on Hollywood Elsewhere. He's a poseur without an iota of actual knowledge of film.

Can I "like" this post 1000 times?

 

[Robert Crawford]

I just can't anymore. There is no teal in this transfer that wasn't there originally. I'm sorry, the director and cameraman timed this transfer (the cameraman directly and the director when the new print was created in the mid-2000s. They got it the way it looked originally and all you people who haven't a clue as to what it looked like originally are just judging things by the completely wrong previous transfers. I'm glad you're happy with that - anyone who knows this film is thrilled with this transfer. And please don't bother me with anything Jeffrey Wells writes on Hollywood Elsewhere. He's a poseur without an iota of actual knowledge of film.

Fear not Bruce, I’ll be buying this release in the next month and I’m really looking forward to seeing this beautiful video presentation of this fine film.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Waiting for your comments on Bull Durham, Bruce. Certain sites are complaining about "tealing" there as well.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Waiting for your comments on Bull Durham, Bruce. Certain sites are complaining about "tealing" there as well.

We have an epidemic!

 

[david hare]

Jesus! Is Jeffrey Wells still alive? Someone told me they saw him at Cannes! I though it was his ghost

On the subject of this film., I went to see it three days running when it opened in Sydney in 1969 (at the long gone Paris cinema). MeEory is unreliable but that heavily censor-cut print stayed in circulation for a long time and I remember it pretty well over god knows how many screenings. The grainyness and the edginess was a given, in fact I felt a lot of the location shooting and hand held camera was a huge nod to the Warhol/Morrissey scene in Manhattan back then. In fact Morrisey, along with Viva, International Velvet and Ultra Violet and Taylor Mead (the 'Sissy" from Lonesome Cowdoys) are in the big party scene in MC. The nervous kid who gives Voight the BJ was played by Bob Balaban! The movie has huge resonances for me and doubtless many others. The gorgeous Criterion disc is very much how it looked. Very much. The only time Crit goes teal on you is when it's inherited a transfer from Cineteca Bologna who have a real creamy yellow and teal bias in their color restorations, very much like the dreaded Lab. Eclair post house in Paris. Criterion's own work with other houses like Prasad and Technicolor LA is exemplary. This is exemplary.

 

[CarlosMeat]

I just can't anymore. There is no teal in this transfer that wasn't there originally and it is hardly the predominant color, and I wouldn't even call what you're calling teal teal. You think there's a teal wash in the scene in Sylvia Miles' apartment? In the place where Ratso and Joe stay? I'm sorry, the director and cameraman timed this transfer (the cameraman directly and the director when the new print was created in the mid-2000s. They got it the way it looked originally and all you people who haven't a clue as to what it looked like originally are just judging things by the completely wrong previous transfers. I'm glad you're happy with that - anyone who knows this film is thrilled with this transfer. And please don't bother me with anything Jeffrey Wells writes on Hollywood Elsewhere. He's a poseur without an iota of actual knowledge of film.

Thankfully the reviews for the most part have been absolutely stellar and people who know the look of the film are, as I said, beyond thrilled. I think we've all said what we have to say.

As I said I don't have an old version of this film. The teal wash as you call it is definitely stronger in certain scenes than others but skies in the Texas scenes which should be blue are teal. Look at reflections of buildings in windows etc these should be blue or neutral and are most definitely teal.

The scene with the older lady early on in New York there is nothing that is white any place.

This looks nothing like films from this era although except for the colorization which has been applied the transfer looks beautiful.

Honestly I wish I didn't see what I see in this iteration of a good film but I do.

 

[david hare]

It's not a teal wash. The opening scenes with strong green present with a strong green. Thus the first ten minutes are heavier in grain and his shirt throughout (except the flashbacks) is a striking teal green. When he arrives in Manhattan he changes to a pop button blue shirt. All through the film whites are dead pure, blacks are clean and red, yellows, blues and secondary colors pop. There is no bias apparent to me. The whole transfer has been mastered at the higest possible end of Rec.709 color spacing. There is simply no "teal wash". This is what it looked like in 1969, and the use of original elements for the foundation delivers an even finer grain rez and better dynamic range than was visible back then.

 

[david hare]

Carlos as you have the disc I suggest you watch ASAP the Bonus short with DP Alan Holender in which he talks about the diverse ways he and Schlesinger dealt with light, particularly a long section starting around 7 minues in when he talsk about flashing both neg and positive, and going back and forth between over and unerexposure of shootng to create "realty" and "flashback" shots visually. I think he gives you all the cues for a rewarding viewing of it in a new - so to speak - light.

 

[CarlosMeat]

I know this is getting tedious really throughout the film Jon Voight has teal eyes not green not blue. The reflections in windows aren't green they are teal. I agree that the film has fine looking grain and has a good look to it in many ways but it doesn't look like contemporary film(contemporary to it's release) but one that was manipulated.

If I had come down with yesterdays rain ,as my late father used to say, I'd believe you.

Anyway, as much as I , in my heart of hearts, believe that this film has been digitally colorized much like the final cut of Blade Runner but in a more subtle manner ,I am not going to spend any more time here since my observations and conclusions drawn from are falling on deaf ears.

The issue I see is that having been now sensitized to the effect I can no longer "not see it" much like single chip DLP rainbows.


Uncle !

 

[haineshisway]

It's tedious because you are wrong. It's really that simple. And I said "teal wash" because that's what everyone's been saying - it's not a phrase I would use otherwise, as it's ridiculous. So either you're watching it on some device that is completely skewing the color (certainly possible) or I don't know what to tell you, but you have multiple people in this thread telling you what this film originally looked like and yet on you go, never having seen it originally. That's what's tedious. Assume those of us who know the film know what we're talking about. His eyes are not teal, the sky is blue when it's meant to be blue and if I never hear the word teal again as long as I live it will be too soon.

 

[haineshisway]

Waiting for your comments on Bull Durham, Bruce. Certain sites are complaining about "tealing" there as well.

I wouldn't comment on its look because believe it or not I've never seen the film And certain sites think EVERY transfer is teal and orange because that's what they do. 99% of the time they're wrong.

 

[CarlosMeat]

I lied, one more thing. Thanks for welcoming me into this place. A great bunch of folks here.

 

[haineshisway]

I just took a gander at that Bull Durham thread. I don't want to derail this thread, but it's the SAME PEOPLE doing exactly what they did with Midnight Cowboy - when they realized they were wrong about that one every single one of 'em disappeared never to comment again. And guess what they're basing it on? Yep, the Beaver caps. And there's one cap there that will probably tell you everything you need to know about him and that site: There's a group photo where a team player on the left is wearing a blue shirt in the old transfer that is literally bright green in the new. Now, when you look at every other color in that scene, most of it is VERY close - so how can it be that one article of clothing has changed so drastically? Answer: It can't, so you tell me. In order for that to happen every other color in that shot would be skewed in some horrendous way. Something is very wrong, and while I don't care for Dr. Svet, who raved about the transfer and of course gets called a Criterion apologist (he also raved about Midnight Cowboy), he correctly states that the Beaver's caps are a joke, and he goes into detail as to why - how he captures them and the fact that they all have incorrect color values. This guy is doing more harm than anybody, I'm sorry. But it is literally the same people bellyaching based on those caps. Again, I don't know the film and maybe now I'll finally see it, but my guess is that because Criterion, as with Midnight Cowboy, didn't actually DO the transfer (MGM/UA and the film's director Ron Shelton did it), I'm just gonna guess that it's probably stellar.

 

[haineshisway]

I lied, one more thing. Thanks for welcoming me into this place. A great bunch of folks here.

No one has a problem with you being here, certainly I don't. What some people have a problem with are your posts about this film. This is a discussion board and of course if people disagree with your assertions they're going to say so.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I lied, one more thing. Thanks for welcoming me into this place. A great bunch of folks here.

I won't allow anybody to call somebody a liar on this forum! People are disagreeing with what you're seeing so we need to agree to disagree here. This Blu-ray title came out on May 29th, people will make up their own minds once they view the disc with their own eyes and on their own home theater set up. If teal is what you're seeing, so be it, just respect those that don't see the same color scheme as you do and we'll do the same with you.

Let's stop the bickering and let other posters come here and post their opinions about this disc. The back and forth isn't going to change opinions as people can see for themselves. I plan on buying this release next month when Barnes and Nobles has their July sale. I won't comment any further until then except to moderate and keep the peace in this thread.

 

[Angelo Colombus]

Saw the rest of the Criterion dvd and overall I like the look of the film so I returned it back to the library and just ordered it on Amazon. A good film with great performances.

 

[DeeF]

Great film, I've seen it in the theater many times. The Criterion blu-ray is too teal, something I didn't know about until I watched it tonight.

 

[CarlosMeat]

Great film, I've seen it in the theater many times. The Criterion blu-ray is too teal, something I didn't know about until I watched it tonight.

Be careful, saying such could be interpreted as blaspheme.

 

[The Drifter]

Since I'm such a huge fan of MC, a while back I decided to check out Criterion's MC Blu - but did have my reservations re: the green/teal coloring (as has been discussed on here).

However, I was pleasantly surprised by this disk! This Criterion MC print has, overall, superb PQ - very impressive. For the most part, it's unquestionably better than any previous version of the film - what a revelation. In fact, I've seen this film numerous times & noticed some things in this viewing that I hadn't before. Notably, the scene when Joe Buck is leaving Brenda Vacarro's apt. after spending the night: As she is sitting down & talking on the phone, there is some smoke (from a cigarette) coming from the table in the lower right-hand corner of the screen (your right as you're facing the screen). This smoke was not evident to me in previous prints; I'm not saying it wasn't there, just that I hadn't seen it before. I know that she's smoking at one point & does put the cigarette on the table, but - again - in past viewings I didn't see the cigarette smoke from the unseen cigarette (on the table) prior to this viewing.

The teal/green that I was concerned about is definitely evident in the film itself - but it's made more obvious when looking at comparisons to the MGM Blu. That being said, my preference would have been more natural colors. I find it extremely unnecessary, and doesn't add anything to the film at all.

Also, with regards to PQ, this Criterion print is not perfect. There were several scenes in Ratso's condemned apartment that were way too dark; these were much lighter/clearer on the MGM Blu.

Do I prefer this over the 2011 MGM Blu?! Overall, yes. And, this is definitely my go-to copy when I want to see the film. That being said, I will keep the MGM Blu because there were certain aspects of this print that I prefer - i.e. more natural lighting/color, etc.

Though I didn't have a lot of time to go through the special features, I did read the pamphlet/insert that came with the Disk. This was a great article/analysis of the film, and made me think of MC in ways I hadn't before. I agreed completely with the analysis of the friendship/bond that Joe Buck had with "Ratso" Rizzo. Great write-up; Kudos to the author & to Criterion for including this. It was nice to get an fresh perspective on a 50-year old film.

Trivia: I did not know that MC was filmed in the Spring/Summer of 1968; I thought it was filmed in the Fall/winter, since some of the film does appear to take place during cold weather. There is even one scene where it's snowing & another where pipes freeze (in Ratso's condemned apartment).

 

[haineshisway]

As others have mentioned - watch the featurette with the cameraman. He and the director did not want natural colors for certain sequences. But, let me guess - you've never actually seen this film in a theater. Your preference is your preference and has nothing to do with what the filmmakers' preferences were. But one simply cannot go beating one's head against a brick wall without one's brains falling out on the floor.