Will we ever see restorations of the original 35mm prints of Disney animation classics? (1 Viewer)

[Konstantinos]

I thought to start this thread here, about a subject that has concerned me over the years.

The disney animation classics are among my favourite films ever, but we all know about the extensive "restorations" (=alterations) they get on Blu-ray with altered colors, degraining, and other techinques.. Some people agree with this, some don't.
Here's some comments from bigshot on the matter.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/328063-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-mary-poppins-in-blu-ray/page-5#entry4030417
I'm not an expert myself, so I wouldn't know what Disney is doing exactly..

Although I had purchased 2-3 Blurays in the beginning, I've stopped, because I see even Blurays that are generally hailed as magnificent, are changed.
See for example this random screenshot:

Imagine how that would be if it was restored from the original 35mm film print with grain and all.
I personally love grain and I think it makes these animation films alive!
And I was SO IMPRESSED by the work Thunderbean did to Gulliver's Travels!
A work like that on all the Disney animation classics, would be a dream come true for me!


So, do you think that we will ever see such work done once this "trend" of "restorations" passes?
Or are the original film prints stored somewhere and slowly deteriorating, so we will never have the chance to see them restored?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

In my opinion... Nope. I hear Disney execs want the classic movies to look like new Pixar films.

 

[FoxyMulder]

I agree with Ron, i don't think it will happen, i want it to happen but it won't.

I think Disney have preserved the originals, they are stored so it is possible that in the future we could get these Disney releases with their film grain and original look intact, i just think they don't want us to see film grain, that situation will get worse if 4K takes off, they promote such formats as "crystal clear" and do not want us to see film grain on animation.

I have a projector and for me when they erase the film grain they also remove the finer detail, it's obvious when projected, some of the Disney titles can hold up quite well on 60 inch televisions but less so as you move to projection sizes.

 

[Konstantinos]

The funny thing is that some films were released on Bluray with grain intact (eg. The little Mermaid, The Rescuers, The Rescuers down under and I don't know what else).
Was it a different team in charge of these Bluray releases?
And why they decided not to do their extensive restoration-alteration in these movies?

 

[Wayne_j]

I also think that Disney considers the original cell's to be the original version and grain to be a defect needed to show them at the time.

 

[MatthewA]

You can get rid of cel dust without removing film grain. Other studios can and have done so.

In my opinion... Nope. I hear Disney execs want the classic movies to look like new Pixar films.

But they don't and they never will. They just end up looking like smeary distortions of the originals.

 

[Konstantinos]

I also think that Disney considers the original cell's to be the original version and grain to be a defect needed to show them at the time.

Does it also think that the original color is a defect?

See for example here a RADICAL change in color in Fantasia, that totally changes the aesthetics of the scene (the light coming out of the darkness):

 

[FoxyMulder]

The funny thing is that some films were released on Bluray with grain intact (eg. The little Mermaid, The Rescuers, The Rescuers down under and I don't know what else).
Was it a different team in charge of these Bluray releases?
And why they decided not to do their extensive restoration-alteration in these movies?

Yes but the grain has been "managed" and it not what i would call film like at all.

The tools use temporal and spatial grain reduction techniques and Disney do use a different team for their B titles, unfortunately not much love is given to some of those titles and as a result you can often see some ringing and other artifacts.

 

[Konstantinos]

Yes but the grain has been "managed" and it not what i would call film like at all.

Oh, i didn't know that.
I just saw some screenshots and they looked good to me.
At least in comparison to all the other totally grainless films.

The thing is that I would prefer to see a transfer like The Secret of NIMH (which isn't generally considered good), with dust and other sort of stuff, than see a clear(?) version.

 

[FoxyMulder]

The thing is that I would prefer to see a transfer like The Secret of NIMH (which isn't generally considered good), with dust and other sort of stuff, than see a clear(?) version.

Me too, i'll take an imperfect transfer over a grain managed smeary transfer any day of the week.

A good review with some screencaps showing film grain on an animated title. ( shock, horror, much relief )

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?search=the+secret+of+nimh&IncludeBlogs=2&limit=20

I think Disney have the USA rights to the Studio Ghibli animated films and they must be under orders from Japan to leave the film grain intact because those Ghibli titles recently released look much better than the animated Disney classics.

 

[Konstantinos]

I think Disney have the USA rights to the Studio Ghibli animated films and they must be under orders from Japan to leave the film grain intact because those Ghibli titles recently released look much better than the animated Disney classics.

Oh really?
I wouldn't know since I'm purchasing little by little the Japanese releases of the Ghibli films (the silhouette line), and they seem perfect!

yeah, about those NIMH screenshots: They're exquisite!!
I didn't buy the Blu-ray because I prefer the 4:3 version that isn't included, but maybe I should buy it eventually..

 

[Kyrsten Brad]

The funny thing is that some films were released on Bluray with grain intact (eg. The little Mermaid, The Rescuers, The Rescuers down under and I don't know what else).Was it a different team in charge of these Bluray releases?And why they decided not to do their extensive restoration-alteration in these movies?

I just recently purchased "The Rescuers/The Rescuers Down Under"and I can say that on my 70, it definitely looks like grain reduction was done as the image looked what I'd call over-sharpened, especially on the first film ( no so much on the second, it was made 13 years after the first).

 

[MatthewA]

Actually, when I watched Rescuers Down Under, I was surprised by how much grain it had. The irony here is that this was the first title to use the CAPS process for the whole film and forgo inked cels altogether. That didn't stop Disney from selling fake cels of later films, though. Why this film didn't at least get a direct-from-digital transfer is beyond me.

 

[moviebuff75]

I think the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way. After everything else is exhausted, Disney will think of another way to milk the classics, and this will be it. It might not happen soon, but someday it will.

 

[MatthewA]

I think the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way. After everything else is exhausted, Disney will think of another way to milk the classics, and this will be it. It might not happen soon, but someday it will.

It's conceivable. That happened with aspect ratios in the 1990s; not counting the three flying babysitter musicals, everything between the two Technirama 70 features (Sleeping Beauty and The Black Cauldron) was 1.33:1 on laserdisc and the initial DVDs except The Rescuers, which was 1.66:1 on DVD.

 

[FoxyMulder]

The irony here is that this was the first title to use the CAPS process for the whole film and forgo inked cels altogether. That didn't stop Disney from selling fake cels of later films, though. Why this film didn't at least get a direct-from-digital transfer is beyond me.

I have read that and it suggests they used a film source, very strange really but they consider it a B title.

 

[bigshot]

Not until Lassiter gets replaced. He's the one calling the shots on how the blu-ray restorations should look.

 

[ljgranberry]

I've become so disillusioned by what the studios do to their film libraries after THE ALAMO debacle, and the way Disney removes film grain, etc., that the only label I trust anymore is Criterion. I think no film studio should be entrusted with their classic films - what we need is a national film and television archive where storage is done carefully, and preservation is conducted on a periodic basis and as technology improves. I know this is heresy to many who believe in capitalism, intellectual property, yada, yada, yada, but I truly feel the situation is as bad as it's ever gotten and will only continue to get worse. The people in charge now have no consideration of film as an art form - look at the current junk they turn out, and the way they treat their classics. I dread where the state of things will be even 5 years from now. They have not proven themselves to be caretakers of the art form.

 

[FoxyMulder]

I've become so disillusioned by what the studios do to their film libraries after THE ALAMO debacle, and the way Disney removes film grain, etc., that the only label I trust anymore is Criterion. I think no film studio should be entrusted with their classic films -

I trust Sony/Columbia who have a "film grain is good and should be left intact" approach to it all, they have also been consistent in preservation at 4K for 35mm shot productions, as for Criterion, well they licence their titles out and mostly rely on what they are given, i have seen a few bad Criterion titles taken from older masters so they are far from perfect.

 

[Robert Harris]

I thought to start this thread here, about a subject that has concerned me over the years.

The disney animation classics are among my favourite films ever, but we all know about the extensive "restorations" (=alterations) they get on Blu-ray with altered colors, degraining, and other techinques.. Some people agree with this, some don't.
Here's some comments from bigshot on the matter.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/328063-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-mary-poppins-in-blu-ray/page-5#entry4030417
I'm not an expert myself, so I wouldn't know what Disney is doing exactly..

Although I had purchased 2-3 Blurays in the beginning, I've stopped, because I see even Blurays that are generally hailed as magnificent, are changed.
See for example this random screenshot:

Imagine how that would be if it was restored from the original 35mm film print with grain and all.
I personally love grain and I think it makes these animation films alive!
And I was SO IMPRESSED by the work Thunderbean did to Gulliver's Travels!
A work like that on all the Disney animation classics, would be a dream come true for me!


So, do you think that we will ever see such work done once this "trend" of "restorations" passes?
Or are the original film prints stored somewhere and slowly deteriorating, so we will never have the chance to see them restored?

I doubt that anyone would wish to view Disney classics restored from original prints. They would be muddy, contrasty and lacking in resolution.

RAH