Will Krupp

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Listen, I don't know what to tell you, buddy. You seem determined to dig your heels in. I don't care what you "got" google to tell you about the "debut." It's just an algorithm and, in this case, It's giving you wrong information.

The definition of the verb "debut" is "to perform in public for the first time." We already know that WIZARD OF OZ "debuted" much earlier than that. Can you at least concede that it was seen in public prior to August 25th? I hope? If so, your google answer is already wrong.

See, I can make it give me a wrong answer, too:

upload_2019-8-25_23-32-51.png
 
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Camper

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Wow. Just sad. It actually "debuted" in public much earlier at the preview where they then made cuts because it was deemed too scary. Anybody know the date of the preview?

Of course there will be some technical reason that -- "to perform in public for the first time." -- doesn't apply to the preview -- right?
 

Will Krupp

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Anybody know the date of the preview?
According to the John Fricke book that was released as a companion to the film's 50th anniversary, the full list of previews and towns is lost. There was definitely a preview (one of the earliest if not actually the first) on June 16th at the Pomona Fox Theater where it ran 112 minutes. There was also a preview on June 27th and one (date unknown) in San Louis Obispo. It was turned over for final negative cutting on July 6th and ran 101 minutes. The scenes must have been removed sometime over those three weeks.
 
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Camper

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Well all I can say is that I'd give a lot to see that 112 minute cut -- a whole lot.

And would the "beehive" scene been a part of that? I have heard it was not finished (adding in the animated bees) -- would they have enough time to complete that in time for wide release? Or was that cut earlier?
 
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Will Krupp

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And would the "beehive" scene been a part of that? I have heard it was not finished (adding in the animated bees) -- would they have enough time to complete that in time for wide release? Or was that cut earlier?
It was supposedly in the Pomona cut (without the final animation.) Audiences were very willing to give "previews" a wide berth in terms of finishes since they knew they were incomplete rough cuts (often the music wasn't even finalized yet)

I just see now that the first preview was held in either Santa Barbara or San Bernadino and after that first preview (and prior to Pomona) "The Jitterbug" and the Ray Bolger solo extension to "If I Only Had a Brain" were cut.

Interestingly, the excision of the "Beehive" scene resulted in a continuity error with Dorothy and her companions lined up in the wrong order. Because it was very noticeable, they flipped the film for that shot so their order matched up with the scene right before the cut. To do this, they had to print the flipped shot through the base rather than the emulsion, which is why that one shot has always looked softer than any other in the movie.
 
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Camper

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I realize why they cut so-called "scary" parts because the movie was aimed at kids.
But were the other scenes cut simply for time or because the audiences didn't like them?
If it was because the audience is didn't care for certain material then it's a case of the people have spoken but if they just got cold feet about the length of the movie then that would be kind of a shame since all the footage or most of it was eventually lost.
 
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darkrock17

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It was supposedly in the Pomona cut (without the final animation.) Audiences were very willing to give "previews" a wide berth in terms of finishes since they knew they were incomplete rough cuts (often the music wasn't even finalized yet)

I just see now that the first preview was held in either Santa Barbara or San Bernadino and after that first preview (and prior to Pomona) "The Jitterbug" and the Ray Bolger solo extension to "If I Only Had a Brain" were cut.

Interestingly, the excision of the "Beehive" scene resulted in a continuity error with Dorothy and her companions lined up in the wrong order. Because it was very noticeable, they flipped the film for that shot so their order matched up with the scene right before the cut. To do this, they had to print the flipped shot through the base rather than the emulsion, which is why that one shot has always looked softer than any other in the movie.
I've never noticed that, here's the scene; point it out to me.

 

Camper

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The Flopped scene I believe occurred right before that clip. You can tell because the Tin Man's hat is tilted in an in the opposite direction than it usually is and the rivets on his chest are on the opposite side of the seam that runs down the middle. That's a pretty famous continuity error that I first read about in the 80s perhaps. I think it's right after he snaps and his fingers and says "beehive bah..."
 
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Will Krupp

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I've never noticed that, here's the scene; point it out to me
Camper is right, it's immediately before this clip. When the Tin Man puts out the witch's fireball with his hat, he's on the left side of the screen and the scarecrow is on the right. There's a cut to the witch disappearing into a puff of smoke and then a brief close up of Dorothy. The next shot (starting with "I'm not afraid of her!") is the flipped one, with the scarecrow now on the left of the screen and the Tin Man on the right. You can see it's noticeably less sharp due to the red and green negatives being exposed on the matrices through the base. (Ironically enough, for once, the blue negative was exposed through the emulsion since that one was flipped in camera and always exposed through the base.) Right AFTER that shot was originally the beehive scene and they moved around so that they were no longer standing in the right order. It left a noticeable error when the scene was cut so it was flipped to minimize the gap.
 
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