That is IT!!! If no Outlaw 950 by 2/15/02 then... (1 Viewer)

[Patrick R. Sklenar]

Plus mint conditioned used stuff. I'll be a Krell, Theta, Meridian 5.1 setup (all which can be found used in the low $2000's) would satisfy many of us sonically at least as much as a lower end upcoming pieces that has DTS EX, DPL2 and other newer formats.

You're quite right. If you can afford to pay 2 to 3 times as much to by an Integra or Lexicon or any of these other high end pieces, that's great for you. However, some of us don't have the financial resources that some of you do. In my personal case, I'm building a house and I've set aside $1000 for a model 950. I don't have $2000 to $3000 lying around ... I have $1000. Other folks have other limitations on what they can afford as well.
As for used vs new ... what's the warrenty on these used high end brands you mention? If I can't afford to pay more than I bugdeted for the unit, I certainly can't afford to sent it right out for out-of-warrenty repair work 3 monhts later. :frowning:
If another new piece comes out at or under the $1000 mark and if it provides the functionality the 950 promises and quality of Outlaw products that I've already seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears ... then I'll have a viable option. But paying even $500 more simply isn't in the budget.

 

[John Tompkins]

LarryB, I agree with you 100 percent about other options not being discussed. Patrick, knock on wood but Iv gone through about 8-10 used processors, at least that many amps and have yet to have a problem buying used. I guess some of us are a little more willing to take a small change with which you are rewarded by saving some major dollars. Beside that many companies offer transferable warranties.

The Adcom GTP-830 900.00 street, I had for a couple of weeks {thank you Myer Emco for letting me borrow it} SOUNDED fantastic I mean crystal clear. It has 7.1 matrix but not dts-es,dpl II and only two digital inputs.

Lexicon DC-1 or 2 and MC-1..Everybody knows, GREAT home theater, very good two channel and logic Seven 7..down sides are no dpl II, dts-es {who cares youll have logic 7} and no analog bypass but there are options you have to get around this {another discussion} street 1300.00~2300.00

Parasound 2500u newer model with automatic room calibration and some other nice features and circle jr. jigg. Dont know much about this except 2500u has 3500.00 price tag and can be had on ebay for 1025.00 ? circle surround jr. 250.00..

If you can do without dpl II and are willing to use a secondary adapter{circle surround jr.} OR just need 5.1 setup..The choices are many. HK, sherwood 9080, and so many more..maybe somebody else could comment.

Thats not even to mention using a nice reciever as a pre, which in my book is just fine. That would also be a BIG list and ever growing..HK 8000 anybody tried ? Onkyo 989,898,denon 4802,3802,Sherwoods new recievers and on and on

 

[RAF]

I totally agree that there are many, many options in the separates realm once you open yourself to considering used equipment. After all, one of the reasons to go with separates is so that you are not "married" to a particular piece of equipment. It's an ever-changing landscape. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with the many fine alternative suggestions being offered here. (Remember, this is a Receiver/Separates forum, not the "Outlaw" forum. )
That said, however, I can fully understand and appreciate Patrick's position regarding the 950. Lots of people (myself included) want to get the best price:performance out there whenever we can (thus my SVS subwoofer, my Sony VW10HT projector, and many other products) and the Outlaw 950 is an intriguing product to say the least. There's something comforting about buying a piece of equipment new with a healthy warranty (in the case of Outlaw, I believe it's 5 years.) Yes, the used market has many gems to offer (especially with the turnover rate of some high end equipment) but some people are uncomfortable going that route.
On paper, the 950 appears to be a revolutionary product if the performance comes anywhere close to what people are projecting, based on the type of components rumored to be involved (top of the line DA chips from industry leaders, etc.) We won't know for sure until the first word is released regarding what the 950 sounds like. And if that word tells us that this unit is sounding like a $3000 pre-amp (or whatever) then it will be a winner.
There are sure to be minor glitches in any sophisticated piece of equipment trying to juggle a myriad of new technologies - the more sophisticated a piece of equipment is, the more things that have to be resolved. And I am extremely confident that this is the phase that the 950 is going through right now. The Outlaws themselves mentioned that some of the delay was caused by the inclusion of some new processing modes like DPL2, etc. that became available after the original specs for the 950 were formulated. At this point there is every indication that the set of features has been finalized and now it's just a matter of tweaking the programming glitches - a phase that is certainly less time consuming than redesigning entire sections of a product.
I am equally as confident that the process is close to completion at this point and that it won't be long before the 950 is ready for the public and that it will equal or surpass most expectations. And you know what? If it doesn't then people move on to "Option #2." As I've said many times before I, for one, would prefer something being done right rather than being done fast. If you are not of the same opinion, or if waiting has frustrated you to the point of no return, then no one is forcing you to stay the course. I'm sure that there will be many more people who want to purchase the 950 than units available (at least for the first few months). Outlaw certainly isn't holding back this product on purpose. It would make no sense at all to turn down sales. The market is certainly there, and other manufacturers are certainly not standing pat. I applaud the "get it right" philosophy at the expense of some sales. It's refreshing. In fact, there are too many products out there that go to market with known flaws.
Can you say, "Recall?"
The Bottom Line: I firmly believe that the wait will be rewarded with a very, very good product at a very, very good price. You can choose to disagree and of course you are free to exercise your options as mentioned before.
That's my take on all this.

 

[Will]

The Bottom Line

Here's four bottom lines:

One, although there are many receivers with DPL 2 that street for under $500 today, nobody makes a pre/pro with DPL 2 that streets for under $2000 today.

Two, by the middle of the year, there will be many different pre/pros with DPL 2 that street for under $2000.

Three, of all the DPL 2 pre/pro's that come out by the middle of this year that steet for under $2000, the Outlaw pre/pro looks to be the lowest price of them all, even though it's going to be twice as expensive as some DPL 2 receivers.

Four, for the past two years, Outlaw has said they'd have a DPL 2 pre/pro very very soon, at a great price, and this has created a huge buzz. If they had delivered it years before others, or even six months before others, they'd have a huge lock on the market. But they haven't. Now it looks like they'll be delivering it at about the same time that others will, but in their favor, theirs will be the cheapest DPL 2 pre/pro. However it still is twice what some DPL 2 receivers cost.

 

[Allen Longcor]

Very well said! I also think that the wait will be worth it. Better to get it right the FIRST time then to put out a flawed product. I hope Outlaw gets some praise for the new product after they have taken all this crap. Let's kill this thread now too.

 

[Ricky T]

I don't understand this feeling/belief that one must WAIT for the Outlaw prepro to have one?! If the Outlaw prepro is reviewed well, I or anyone else can get it. I'll bet my waiting period to get a unit will be a whole lot shorter than someone who's been waiting for it. Some people who have been waiting for months, even years are even going without ac3 or dts. Isn't this hobby about HT enjoyment?

LarryB,

Great post! I agree 100 percent, and could not have said it better myself!

 

[Eric A]

This is going to make alot of you guys mad but I must share this. I was in a local dealer the other day and I was speaking to a rep from Lexicon. What he stated made me a bit mad but after I thought about it for a while he made a great deal of sense. First of all, anyone looking in this price range for separates may as well go with a comparably priced receiver. He stated that in todays industry the majority of these companies are taking the front end of there receivers and repackaging the as PrePros. He said that they are giving you extra flexibility but sound quality is the same. His logic was that the receivers are so good nowadays that you have to spend a great deal of money to get into separates that truly sound better. His example was the new Pioneer Elite 49. He said the first prepro that would he would actually spend his money on was a B&K Ref 30. So according to him, all of you that are waiting on the 950 and have around 2K to spend, go ahead and get a good receiver.

 

[Will]

I see why a Lexicon dealer would say that. Doesn't mean what he says is true. He's a salesman afterall. He wants you to stretch for a Lexicon pre/pro if you're going to buy a pre/pro.

 

[Ron Boster]

Eric: I have to agree with you and the Lexicon rep. That's why I would and have spent my money in recent upgrades in the used High-end market. I try to get into the next level of gear at what I'd spend for mid-quality new gear. I think the pre-owned Lexicon MC-1 is a good example of a processor for around 2 grand that steps one up into the next level, but at decent prices....now the logic of buying the 950 with the idea of upgrading in 18-24 months, if something better/new comes out makes sense too. But, if you are going to keep this unit for 3-4 years, then I think a used MC-1 or similar (pre-owned)processor makes sense.

Ron

 

[Evan S]

Larry, Amen to that!!!

 

[Legairre]

I hope Outlaw gets some praise for the new product after they have taken all this crap. Let's kill this thread now too.

Should we just kill all threads that don't praise a manufaturer or just the ones that don't praise the Outlaws?

 

[RAF]

Quote:

Like someone else mentioned, one would expect a Lexicon Dealer (or similar) to say that. But my take on this is that this is exactly the mold that the Outlaws are attempting to break here. Their whole emphasis has been to try to produce something that would provide a price/performance ratio unlike anything else out there. I was a "separatist" back in the late '50's with my Dynaco pre-amp, tuner and amplifier. Then I became a "receiverist" when the AV recievers appeared and HT began to evolve. I even chose one of the super receivers, my Denon 5700, when I designed and built my HT since I bought into the "receivers are so good nowadays" philosophy. But, while I think these mega-receivers are great for what they do (and are the perfect choice for those who want a one box solution as I did) I have rekindled (no thanks to firewire ) my "separatist" routes though a series of incremental upgrades. First it was the replacement of my front soundstage amplification with three Marantz MA700 monoblocks. Definitely an improvement over the Denon. Now it's going to be a replacement of the pre/pro function of the Denon with the 950 and I'm expecting an even bigger jump in performance. And the key here is that I won't be expending a significantly larger amount of $$$ than I would if I took the receiver upgrade path (in the case of the Denon, the 5700 -> 5800 -> 5803 -> 5900 -> whatever shuffle). The 950 (among other options although none of the other new products are here yet, either) promises to make my transition possible.
Like I said, stay tuned....

 

[Evan S]

Robert, my guess is that Razvan has NOT gotten his Integra yet. He posted yesterday on AVS forum under the name Razvenal asking another poster if they have heard the RDC-7 and how does it sound. If he's asking another poster how the unit sounds, I doubt he's received one of his own or he would know, now wouldn't he?

 

[RAF]

Should we just kill all threads that don't praise a manufacturer or just the ones that don't praise the Outlaws?

Seriously Legairre, although there have been some people here who have come to bury Outlaw rather than to praise them. I know you realize that this is not the case here - at least not on my watch. Opinions, pro and con are welcomed as long as the discussion remains somewhat civil and follows forum guidelines. The world would be a very dull place if we all agreed with each other.
And I do understand the "enough, already" attitude expressed by some members - something I was alluding to in my previous post about those who keep coming back again and again and again to the same old points.
The only time I've ever "killed" threads is when they've run their course and don't have anything else to offer. And even in those cases I don't remove the thread - I simply close it and leave it up for all to see since there are usually some valuable information in these threads for newcomers to read. The only exception to this would be if there was something of questionable taste, in which case editting is preferred over erasing the entire discussion.
And of course, the Vox Populi always has the last word. If a thread becomes boring to all it floats down into the obscurity it deserves even without any not-so-divine intervention.

 

[John Tompkins]

VOX POPULI ? Is that sorta like the Grand Puppaw You know the flintstones.

 

[Legairre]

Robert,

I was just being sarcastic. The last thing I'd ever suggest is that you close threads due to negative comments to a manufacturer. I guess I should have put that little smily face at the end of my comments. To me it sounded like Allen was suggesting the thread be closed because of negative Outlaw comments. It's good to know we can speak freely within reason.

Thanks

Legairre

 

[John Tompkins]

Maybe the "Outlaws" are hiding and we need to get the Marines to "smoke em' out of there holes"
But seriously, I cant belive in 21st century America, that there are consumers out there with money burning a whole in their pockets with no product to buy that fits their needs, but I guess for some this is the case.
I for one would not, could not and will not ever wait on a processor, its just to fast paced a product. Thats like waiting on the next speed of computer. My music and home theater pleasure me to much to waste time waiting on an unproven product that might not even sound as good as products that are out currently. But I understand how people have been trapped by the thought of it coming out right after they purchase something else, you know "Murphys Law". Not to beat a dead horse but thats the main problem with outlaw, The tired bogus expected due date game that has been played.

 

[Will]

I for one would not, could not and will not ever wait on a processor, its just to fast paced a product. Thats like waiting on the next speed of computer.

I think it was actually too slow paced, not too fast paced, in this case. At the time, I didn't want to get a new pre/pro without DPL II. I also didn't want to spend alot of money on it since I knew they would come down in price and soon, or so I thought. So I bought an inexpensive receiver to tide me over. Naturally that receiver doesn't have DPL II since I got it so long ago.
But if I were to buy something today to tide me over until an inexpensive pre/pro with DPL II comes out, I'd most likely buy an inexpensive receiver with DPL II.
Supposedly, a bunch of inexpensive pre/pro's with DPL II will be here, soon.

 

[Will]

I agree. The Outlaws have a devastating brilliant advertising campaign. They piss us off enough to complain about them, but not enough to keep us from buying their pre/pro when it comes out. This keeps the Outlaws and their pre/pro always current, delightfully controversial, consistently in the news and very much in the public eye.

Bravo Outlaws! You couldn't buy better advertising PR. And it's totally free.

Just keep doing what you're doing....

 

[Ricky T]

Outlaw hypers complain about Outlaw bashers. But ironically, its the hypers that directly and indirectly have bashed countless products and brands over and over. Repeated comments like "the Outlaw prepro will sound as good as $3k receivers and $3k prepros." There are only a handful of current $3k receivers and a handful of current $3k prepros. So Outlaw is magically better than every other manufacturer? The Anthems, Rotels, Parasounds, Denons, B&Ks, etc of the world just stink, dollar for dollar? The Hypers ARE THE BASHERS.

I don't see the Outlaw 750 amp as the universal winner in the $900-1300 street price NIB 5 channel amps. I see the Anthem MCA5, Sherbourn 1500, Marantz monos, Parasound 1205A (and several more choices when you think about it) as just good and popular right now.

And "...will sound better than products costing 2-3 times as much." This can be said about anything in this hobby. Look at the main speakers in your room. Didn't you think they sound just as good as speakers costing 2-3 times as much when you compared them at the store? In articles you read? Of course, you did, otherwise why would you buy them?! But just because some people prefer a $1k product from forum respected brand A over a $2k product by forum respected brand B, that doesn't mean the vice versa is more common and true (as long as both brands are respected on the forums).

"Outlaw uses quality parts..." I didn't realize Parasound, Anthem, Denon didn't. I forgot that dispite significant economies of scale advantages, the ability to buy these premium parts at lower prices (called volume discounts), and severe competition at the $3k price range, Denon, B&K, Anthem, etc still put lower quality parts into their pride FLAGSHIP products that costs 2-3 times as much (which doesn't make sense when you do the math).