"Southwest will charge large fliers extra fare" - What is your opinion? (1 Viewer)

[Moe Maishlish]

Justin,

"I fail to see how this is, in any way, discrimination."

This is even more disturbing.

Why?

Why is this more disturbing?

You've supported your statement with no evidence whatsoever. You've made a point without backing it up. So I'm going to allow you to re-iterate it more clearly, so I can attempt to figure out what you're trying to say.

I want you to tell me who is being discriminated upon, and on what basis that discrimination is being applied. Be clear so I understand.

Moe.

 

[Calvin Watts III]

Being a big guy, & struggling to lose weight, & also having flown mainly Southwest. I have some thing to say.
First,staying on topic - If I ever have to fly again, I'll use either Delta or Contiential. Those airlines,at least have better customer service,bigger seats, & if you shop around,comparable prices. With Southwest,you know you are going into a sardine can of a plane. You can make that choice to use another airline,or find another means of transportation.
As for Southwest & others charging obese people for an extra seat,while I personally don't like that policy, I can understand it. But, I'd also say that if I paid for that extra seat, & the airline is full,then I get to use all of the space available for that extra seat. Period. And I wouldn't budge if someone wanted to bump me off the flight because I'm taking up two seats. Too bad for them, I paid for that seat. (just so you all know,while I do ask for a seatbelt extension, I can fit into the seat with the armrest down)
As for all the overweight B.O. talk, well,IMO, that is B.S!
Speaking of only myself, I'm very concious of how I look & smell, & I always try to make sure to be courteous to others in whatever public situtation I happen to be in. While I can see where people think that obese always equals BO,well I don't think that's the case.
And there are plenty of skinny people that I run into during the course of a day, (and while I've been flying) that have stunk up a storm. For those of you using That as a point,well think on that.
Okay..(taking a deep breath)...going slightly off topic, I think that people do need to be more tolerant of things. I remember a couple of years back,joining a gym with the express reason of trying to get more exercise & trying to lose my extra poundage. I went 3 times, & instead of hearing anything positive about me trying to change my body,all I got were snickers,stares, & whispered comments. Never again,even if I do (hopefuly) lose the weight I need to lose. I'll walk by myself, and woe to those who stand in my way!!
In closing,& to get back to the topic, & looking at things from my personal beliefs. I've come to two conclusions -
1: You have a choice, & usually more than one (Good thing about living in the USA). While I see both sides of the issue,my choice about flying is to not use Southwest ever again.
2:My other choice,is after reading every posting to this thread, I can't help but feel somwhat upset about what I percive to be mostly (not everyone) fat people bashing.
Whatever your stance,being overweight is a touchy subject, & if I'm thinking about what I'm saying before I say it, you should have the decency to do the same. Personally, I'm looking at a few HTFers somewhat differently now, & not in a positive light. And that just saddens me. :frowning:
BTW, Jack,Patrick & the other admins, I commend you for keeping an eye on this, & your thoughts as well.
Sincerely,
Calvin

 

[Dennis Reno]

First, a big up to the admins for tweaking the direction of this thread several times!
Calvin - I made a comment in the opening post of this thread about a rather large gentleman shoe-horned in the seat next to me who had poor hygiene. I did not, in any manner, mean to infer that ALL large people have B.O. or that ALL skinny people smell like roses That is hardly the case. No offense was intended.
Back on topic - While the larger seat section is a great idea, but it is not a cure-all. What happens if several petite people purchase those seats leaving none available for larger passengers? Can a smaller person who is willing to pay the increased cost be bumped from the "big chair" to allow a larger passenger that spot? If so, is the petite passenger entitled to the difference in price?

 

[Patrick Sun]

I was driving into work this morning, and I had this thought: What if the airlines gave vouchers to the passengers who were imposed upon by having to sit next to a person who overflowed into their seat? Sort of like giving up your seat on an overbooked flight? Would that make up for the inconvenience while not making an overweight person overly sensitive to this situation? Sure, the airlines might lose some money in this solution, but they might also lose the same amount using the "charge overweight passengers extra" scenario as well.

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw it out as a somewhat viable solution. (And asking for the vouchers woulnd't have to be a big public display, simply go to a flight attendant, and ask for one, with the attendant "making the call" on the situation within reasonable tolerances.)

The only reason I bring it up is from the public relations angle (the human angle), and not just as a "you take up 2 seats, you pay for 2 seats" dictate.

 

[Mike Broadman]

dis·crim·i·nate Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nt)
v. dis·crim·i·nat·ed, dis·crim·i·nat·ing, dis·crim·i·nates
v. intr.
To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available.
To make sensible decisions; judge wisely.
To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies.
v. tr.
To perceive the distinguishing features of; recognize as distinct: discriminate right from wrong.
To distinguish by noting differences; differentiate: unable to discriminate colors.
To make or constitute a distinction in or between: methods that discriminate science from pseudoscience

Discrimination can be a "bad" thing or a "good" thing. In fact, it is neither, just depends on the intention of the person doing it.
Discrimination based on race is due to ignorance and hatred. We can all agree that these are bad (unless anyone wants to wish my children were racially discriminated against or something). Southwestern Airlines' policy is based on logistics doing what they feel they need to do to provide better service to their customers.
So, yes, it is discrimination. But it is reasonable discrimination. When you hire empoyees, you discriminate against the lesser qualified ones. During a diving competition, judges discriminate against the lesser performances. We teach our children that Santa Clause discriminates against naughty children. It's part of life, so throwing that word at a situation doesn't automatically make it evil.
Now look at it the other way: what would Southwestern have to gain by picking on the obese if there wasn't a good reason? They knew they would get slack for it, but felt that it was worth it. Does anyone honestly believe that they are just picking on fat people to be mean?
P.S: Short chicks rule!

 

[Patrick Sun]

Mike, stop discriminating against tall chicks!

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Pat,
You bring up a good point. PR would be an issue here. It is impolite to be rude to your customers. Some intelligence would have to be applied.

Calvin brings up another excellent point. If he has paid for two seats (even if he paid a nominal fee for the second), they are both his. Tough crap for anyone else, even on an overcrowded flight.

This is a delicate situation. We live in an overly sensitive society and manners seem to be in less esteem than they used to. The HTF is, without a doubt, my favorite place on the net. There is intelligence, wisdom and, above all, courtesy here. Please let us keep that in mind.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Eve T]

Mike, wow someone else out there knows someone as short as I am.
I get teased a great deal because I am short. I usually wear 5 inch heels (platform shoes) weeee!I'm sure glad that disco trend made it's way back. Or I wear my combat boots that have a rather large heel. I usually also wear long skirts so you can't see how tall my shoes are, and when I tell people at work how short I am they don't believe me until I take off one of my shoes. I've left a few people standing there with thier jaws agape. My husband is over 6 ft tall, so we are kind of like the odd couple.
Yes, I represent the lolipop guild.
Back to the topic, the voucher idea might be a good one but can you imagine being the flight attendant who would have to make the call? I mean what if someone was upset that a heavier person was flowing into their seat and then went to tell the flight attendant and ask for a voucher...you would have to ask for one on board to prove that someone was spilling into your seat. Can you imagine if the flight attendant said no (for whatever reason) and then the thin customer goes into a hissy on board? That would be embarrassing for the heavy person. In any event, a few people are going to be embarrassed and or upset no matter where the judgment call is made. It would probablly be better for all parties concerned if it were done off board and at the ticket counter.
I think it's just going to be easier to sell the two seats to an obese person. It's also going to be more comfortable for ALL parties concerned.

 

[Tom Rhea]

There weren't as many lawyers back then who want to stretch the limits of a new thing called liberalism.

:rolleyes

 

[Philip Hamm]

The airplane's efficiency is directly proportional to the weight of the cargo it's hauling. In this case, the caro is people. Maybe the only fair way to go would be to put a scale in the offices and charge people by lb like they do for freight.

 

[DennisHP]

What if the airlines gave vouchers to the passengers who were imposed upon by having to sit next to a person who overflowed into their seat? Sort of like giving up your seat on an overbooked flight? Would that make up for the inconvenience while not making an overweight person overly sensitive to this situation?"

I think this would do nothing to solve the problem. example: you're inconvienienced and get a voucher, get on another flight with the same small-seated airlines, that offers another possibility of experiencing the same thing. Who is really inconvienienced in this scenario? The same people for whom the airlines are trying to solve the problem.

In my opinion, either the airlines need larger seats or the people need smaller butts. Larger seats on airlines means less people per flight leading to more expensive ticket costs for the 75%-90% of the people who did nothing to raise the issue.

 

[JoshF]

Sorry to belabor the point, but is liberalism new?

And on topic: All this talk about making larger seats available: isn't that called Business Class? What am I missing here?

 

[MickeS]

So does this mean that those who are forced to pay for two seats also get two snacks (SW doesn't serve meals I thinK) and get to take twice as much carry on luggage? At least the luggage part would make up for it a little bit.

 

[ChrisMatson]

Put me in the camp that thinks that if you occupy two seats, you should pay for two seats. I also think that if you must pay for two seats, you should be allowed to have two seats worth of carry-on luggage and in-flight food service.

Hmmm...double food for folks that take up two seats. Sounds like this may make the problem worse.

 

[JoshF]

I'm definitely for having to buy two seats if you take two seats.

When I'm out with a large group of friends here in NYC and we have to take a cab somewhere, we sometimes need to pay for two cabs simply because we don't fit in one cab.

Is that discrimination because I have too many friends?

 

[Brian Perry]

I also think that if you must pay for two seats, you should be allowed to have two seats worth of carry-on luggage and in-flight food service.

This reminds me of something I don't think has been brought up yet. I know of someone who actually purchased two seats, not because he was overweight, but because he wanted extra room (and the tickets were cheap). It turns out the airline ended up overbooking the flight and then FORCED him to let someone else sit in his "extra" seat. (Without giving him a refund for the second seat.)

 

[Sam Posten]

Hi, for those of you whom I havent had the pleasure of meeting at the NYC DVD tours or at the Scootapaloozas, I'm Sam, and I'm morbidly obese.

I also happen to be an air traveller several times a year. Most of the time the airlines are very accomodating, and I've also found clever ways to reduce the possibility of being seated next to others. Sitting in exit rows and using the seat finder tool from E-Tickets helps a lot.

Unfortunately, sometimes I am seated next to another passenger, and its as unpleasant for them as well as me. I do whatever I can to maximize their comfort, tho I understand many travellers arent as caring as I am. And apologies dont go far to making anyone more comfortable.

As a business traveller, I dont have the luxury of planning trips out ahead of time, and planning for first class accomodations. I cant and wont pay for additional fees to make that happen. I've never flown southwest, but I can assure you that if it came down to paying double, even at my size I would fit in a single seat with an ordinary lap belt on.

And there are hundreds of thousands of travellers like me. And the airlines wont make concessions towards larger seats, or even just 2-3 larger seats per flight, because it affects their bottom line. Protests, boycotts and nasty letters are unlikely to ever change that, because there simply is a need for air travel, and if you want to use it, you need to conform to what the vendors states. Lawsuits are another story, and I suspect weightism lawsuits are going to be all the rage for a long time coming.

Americans, generally pretty tolerant, are increasingly weightist, which is surprising given how many of us are both overweight and obese. Add to this that there are many GROWING afflictions of the pituitary and thyroid that make weight control so difficult.

I personally have a pituitary condition called a Pituary Adenoma, a benign lesion which affects many of my hormonal systems. I dont use it as an excuse or crutch for my obesity, but there is no doubt that it makes weight loss even more challenging. I have lost over hundreds of pounds at a time only to regain it. Fancy words like 'lifestyle changes' only work so long as you have the drive to keep to a particular program, once off it, even mildly, it is often impossible to recover.

Oh, and did you know that current studies are showing that as many in one in five out of EVERYONE has a pituitary tumor that is small enough that they dont even know they have it? I only found out about mine when it grew so large as to affect my vision and blood flow.

One of the things that many of you are forgetting is that obesity is not simply caused by someone who eats too much for their own good, but that it is a vicious cycle of eating and the body always craving more.

Anyway, enough about me. I've lived with the jokes, hatred, and snobbery of those who think they are above me cause of my weight for 30+ years, I can deal with people just fine. But I refuse to allow companies and whole industries to imply that I am somehow uncaring in how I affect those around me with my weight, it is simply untrue. So please, dont believe it. And fight the urge to believe that it is ok to to make fun of or discriminate against 'fat people' because 'they do it to themselves'. As someone above said, you'll never know what its like to live and deal with it unless you have. And for those of you who HAVE been successful at weight loss, my congratulations. But come down off your high horses in thinking that just because you have been successful everyone should be able to, cause that aint quite true either.



Sam

 

[Philip Hamm]

Well spoken Sam.

Makes me think of the smoker who goes out of their way to smoke away from non-smokers (most smokers these days).

 

[Max Knight]

Here is an interesting question that I have asked myself.

Let's take an imaginary person who for medical reasons needs to be acompanied by a personal physician at all times. This physician must constantly be next to the person in question, or that person will die. Should the physician travel for free, or should the person in question simply have to make travel arrangements that are different (and perhaps more expensive) than other travelers?

I want to say yes. It is unfortunate that this is the case, but why should the physician fly for free?

 

[Bill_D]

If two people can fit into one seat comfortably
can just one ticket purchased?