Sony to start using Dolby True HD on Blu-ray... (1 Viewer)

[AlexBC]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to cast your vote there and stop this dial norm insanity ; )


Dave,

that's exactly what David Boulet, Dan Hitchman and myself have been debating over at AVS with paidgeek (the Sony insider), along with the use of 48/24 sampling rate for the main audio track. I'm all for PCM or DTS-HD MA @ 48/24. And it was on the course of this debate that he suggested to open a poll and get some empirical evidence on the dial norm issue.

If you care to take a look at the insider thread, you'll find that most of it comes on the last 3 pages. Interesting stuff, but it seems Sony has their mind made about DTHD. In such case, it's better to have it with Dial Norm and other features turned OFF than on.

Now we just have to work on raising their 48/20 intended samplig rate to full 48/24 master quality.

 

[Jeff Adkins]

I'm thankful that I got to vote in this poll. I have read quite a bit in the last 24 hours about how Dolby tampers with the original master during encode. I had no idea that Dolby did this....at least DTS doesn't do it. If we have to put up with Dolby TrueHD, the least we can do is to try and stop this dialog norm. From what I've read, it really serves no purpose for Home Theater. Even paidgeek's reasons listed didn't really make sense.

 

[Cees Alons]

The Toshiba HD-A1 (and further) have a "Dialog Enhancement" option under Audio Settings that can be switched "On" or "Off". Mine is "Off", but I'm not sure (and haven't been able to check) if it also controls the processing of TrueHD.
If not, I agree that would be a good option to have!

Obviously that won't work for you, David, because you're thinking from the wrong end of the decision.

If a studio wants to use DN, it won't choose DTS HDMA, if a studio doesn't, it won't matter which codec they choose.


Cees

 

[Jeff Adkins]

If that's what it really does, then that's a terrific feature to have.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I remember hearing about the "dialogue enhancement" feature of that Toshiba player and I don't think (despite the similarity of the name) it's related to or defeats dialog-norm processing.

 

[Tim Glover]

I suppose there are many of us having to "settle for Dolby TrueHD". If that's the case, then please give me Dolby True HD on ALL of my HD titles.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I see what you're saying, but the reason that most studios are appying dialog-norm settings to their DD audio tracks isn't because they have a conviction about its importance; it's because most of the equipment sets the flag by default and the studio mastering engineers just shrug their shoulders and figure "the more the merrier" when it comes to features that get turned on.

It's the same reason that almost all 2.0 DD tracks on DVD are at the horrible-sounding 192 kbps data-rate... it's the default behavior of the encoder and mastering engineers just don't think twice about the possibility of increasing that to 384 or 448 for fidelity... they just go with the default setting.

No mastering engineer has ever chosen between DTS and DD on the basis of whether or not they wanted to use dialog-normalization. It's just something that Dolby turns on by default for their encodes and since most mastering engineers believe the Dolby-speak that "Dolby's features are good" they just leave it that way.

That's really the concern here with Dolby TrueHD... that the encoders may default to setting it on at a default level without a mastering engineer even thinking about whether or not they wanted to apply it. With DTS, that's not an issue (one reason why I feel "safer" with the DTS codec being used by a studio).

 

[Cees Alons]

Jeff,

Strongly agree!

There's a suggestion (but no more than that) in the User Manual that it may do what we think.

The User Manual was written when TrueHD only supported output through 2 channels on this machine (5.1 channel came with firmware upgrade 2.0), and it says about the Dialog Enhancement function:

. This function is effective only in playback of Dolby Digital recorded HD DVD or DVD video discs.
. This function is effective only when "Speaker Setting" is set to "2ch".
. The effect level of this function vary depending on the disc.[/QUOTE}

Note that "2ch" is opposed to "5.1" channel here (2ch being the proper setting then for TrueHD).


So, it's certainly not conclusive, but one *might* hope!



Dave,

I see your point. But the very best solution is to convince the studios we don't want it, or at least the hardware manufacturers to give us a chance to switch it off.


Cees

 

[Dave Moritz]

I have no problem with that solution Cees.

 

[Jeff Adkins]

I'm sure they do sound great compared to what we're used to for standard DVD. Would they sound as good next to a PCM track with no pre-processing?

I am of the opinion that we shouldn't settle for something with the next-gen format simply because it's better. We should try and convince the studios to give us the best available. Dolby TrueHD with dialog normalization is not the best available. If it's turned off, they should be identical. But as David Boulet pointed out, it's a default setting with THD, but not an option with PCM or DTS-MA.

 

[Cees Alons]

Hey, Dave (Moritz),

Do you happen to know whether or not that setting on the HD-A1 influences the DN of TrueHD playback?


Cees

 

[Dave Moritz]

I have no idea if the setting on the HD-A1 incluences the DN or True HD playback? I am going to go into the setting on my player and listen to a few Dolby True HD tiles tonight and see what happens.

I also am interested in getting the new ver2 firmware update for the HD-A1. If this update takes away the ability to turn off dialog normilization then I will not install it. Has anyone installed the new update yet? Did it improve the overall performance of the player and did it create any new problems?

 

[Edwin-S]

I read the instructions about this feature. In order to be effective, the speaker setting has to be set to two channels. I doubt that "dialog ehancement" has any effect on any dialog normalization that might be used on Dolby+ or DTHD tracks. This feature probably gives a dB boost to certain frequencies where human vocals fall. If DN is present this feature probably just adds another layer of processing on top of it. I'm no expert though and, unfortunately, I've been wrong before.

Apparently, the effectiveness of "enhanced dialog" is dependent on the disc, so proper audio mastering, or lack of it, has to be an important factor.

Edit: I should have read to the end of thread before posting, since you posted that you looked in your instructions as well.

 

[Edwin-S]

IIRC, the version 2.0 update had nothing in that allowed control of dialog normalization. I do not think that there is any user control over dialog normalization on the HD-A1. I updated my player and it seems to be working okay. I have had some minor glitching, but nothing too major. Sometimes, I have lost the audio when switching back and forth between DTHD and DD+ tracks, but that is mainly because I was flipping back and forth repeatedly while trying to A/B the tracks for differences.

I cannot say if the 2.0 update had any positive effect on any HDMI issues because my set is component only. The component inputs for HD material work as good they do for SD material. Overall, it was worth updating in order to get multi-channel functionality for DTHD tracks.

 

[PeterTHX]

DTS doesn't have it because they weren't an option for ATSC HDTV. DialNorm is used by program producers to keep a certain level across programming.

They also don't have convenience features like Night mode so I can get reasonable 5.1 at night without disturbing those who are asleep.

Nor can they figure out how to decode their signal.

 

[Cees Alons]

Getting back to the direct topic of this thread, anyone in a right mind for audio and a love of BD would hail the decision of Sony to start using TrueHD.

In my opinion TrueHD is the proper choice for HD discs. And although the news that the new Chicago release was supplied with uncompressed PCM tracks made me order one right away ( ), I also believe this practice should be abandoned in the future (and it's not very sophisticated, technically, either).

Here are some reasons:

(1) Wasting lots of bytes to big redundant tracks undermines the argument of BD having the advantage of more available space (than the other format). Using bits and bytes, out of convenience, for something you don't really need, suggests it didn't have to be there in the first place.

(2) DTS HD-MA, who were late at the ball as usual, uses more disc space, so see argument (1), and even more bandwidth and processing power than TrueHD. Why would any author want that on his/her disc, or any consumer for that sake?

(3) DTS HD-MA functionally doesn't offer anything TrueHD doesn't have (on the contrary), except those extra tracks of lossy DTS-old.

(4) Studios and recording facilities have proved to be quite capable of tampering with the tracks before coding it (as many of us, some with delight, some with horror, may remember from the days of the first DTS DVDs) and I don't trust they won't do it simply because a compression codec won't allow it.
I even believe that a predefined function in a codec may hold them more readily from doing *something* themselves to the audio.
Furthermore: I'd rather have a codec function to change some characteristics that I can turn on or off, than a change to the original track that I cannot possibly influence anymore (for clarity: I'd rather have no unnecessary alterations at all). Bottom line: we need that DN-On/Off setting! (Are you listening, receiver manufacturers?)

(5) Better compression technology (smaller files, less bandwidth, more effective use of processor power) may tempt the studios to use higher audio sampling (I would be thrilled by a standard of 20 bits already) more readily than less effective compression codecs would.

(6) Lossless = lossless. Period. And that's a message to the studios too!


So, yes, the news of this thread is good news, IMHO.
Let's hope the other studios follow suit! Let the keyword be: TrueHD-20.



Cees

 

[Jeff Adkins]

That's a useful purpose for cable/sat, but it would be nice to stop it from becoming the norm on HD releases.

 

[Jeff Adkins]

While I am worried about DN, I am far more interested in Warner and Paramount to switch to lossless. Sony, Buena Vista and Fox have given us lossless on every title, if we could only get the others on board we'd all be a lot better off.

You made some good points there, Cees. Now, if only we could get you more on the Blu side.

 

[Cees Alons]

I'm impartial. Really.

But I don't hesitate to point out my hesitations about some of the specs (BD+ anyone ) as well as about some unsubstantiated or "future" claims, or overzealous reactions, as I see it - from both sides.

Did you know I already ordered some BD discs (unfortunately, The Fifth Element was one of those).

Can I invite you, in return, to take a kind look at HD DVD once in a while?


Cees

 

[Tim Glover]

Good summary Cees.

There were some recievers back in the day and probably still are that allowed one to set the THX re-Eq off. That was a nice feature as some tracks were a bit too tamed with that part of the THX processing enabled.

Hopefully, this can happen with dn.