Paul Seydor's PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID (1 Viewer)

[Rob Muller]

Sorry, same posting the 2nd time as the 1st ended up somewhere lower in this thread.

I took the pleasure to re-watch both versions once again and worked my way through the excellent thread on Home Theater Forum, there are a lot of knowledgeable Peckinpah fans out there! I am not going to put myself in their league, neither will I repeat all those indepth details.

I am in total agreement with Richard that the Workprint is the best we have. I liked the rhythm of scenes with Pat alternating with Billy scenes. Seeing both movies in a short time, made me painfull aware of the bad cuts made by Seydor. I like the picture-quality of the restoration though, also the scene with Pat's wife. (There is a lot in that scene which shows the man, as he is and became)

In short my request,

The release of a fully restored Workprint in HD, but including the sequence with Pat Garret's wife! No cuts; only when absolute necessary for technical reasons, which not to be decided by any emotional involved fan.

 

[Richard--W]

Whatever happened to the Peckinpah board, BTW? It seemed to disappear last year; has it been resurrected? Can't even remember the URL...

Here it is:
http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/2127594253
But I remember a different message board.
Can't seem to find it now.

 

[Bob Graham]

Here's a link to the "old" website. It is now linked to the new message board as provided by Richard.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/1912/

 

[John Hodson]

Thanks chaps; same people, different style to the old board.

 

[Jean-Gaspard Palenicek]

Personally, I really enjoy the Turner version, its elongated rhythm, its somewhat faded, as if dirt filled colours... In the 1973 release, I miss the opening and ending sequences. And I love the scene by the river, with sheriff Baker´s death. By the way, is "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" sung in the 1973 release? I remember seeing an italian version of it with the vocal, which I thought was a bad idea, because that scene is so visually beautiful, the viewer doesn´t need to be told what´s going on on screen.

I´ve been hoping to see the scene with Garrett´s wife, as well as that with Ruthy Lee, for a long time, so when I heard that those scenes would be put back in by Seydor, I was thrilled. I also liked his book very much, so I was really looking forward to having that boxset. And then... what a disappointment!

Right from the changes in the opening sequence, I felt deceived. Now, I´m not going to go into details here as I agree with most of what has been said above. I haven´t listened to the commentary yet - to say the truth: the whole boxset is on a shelf since and I somehow haven´t got around to lifting it up again.

With all my respect to Paul Seydor, I think, in the end, his new cut has been a way for him to participate on the beauty of a film he loves. But, as often with Peckinpah, once you move or take away one little bit here, other bits and pieces elsewhere in the film won´t quite work anymore and soon you´ll end up making a mess.

And so, we are still waiting for a decent Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid DVD. And with a film such as this one - uncompleted/uncompletable, yet a real masterpiece -, I agree it should contain the 1973 release as well as the Turner version (in decent quality!), with a documentary explaining the whole messy evolution of the various releases, and with the missing scenes added up at least among the bonuses - if not with a new attemp at a more restrained restored version.

Jean-Gaspard Palenicek

 

[Bob Graham]

Mike,

Ich habe Ihr Buch heute durch Amazon bekommen. Sie haben recht. Es lohnt sich wohl!

Bob

For everybody else:

Mike's book is fantastic! The pictures are exhaustive and outstanding, even if you can't understand the German text. Yeah, 14 euros for shipping to the States is outrageous, but in the end it's absolutely worth it. Highly recommended!

 

[Richard--W]

And so, we are still waiting for a decent Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid DVD. And with a film such as this one - uncompleted/uncompletable, yet a real masterpiece -, I agree it should contain the 1973 release as well as the Turner version (in decent quality!), with a documentary explaining the whole messy evolution of the various releases, and with the missing scenes added up at least among the bonuses - if not with a new attempt at a more restrained restored version.
Jean-Gaspard Palenicek

Your sentiments are shared by just about everyone.

 

[Elijah Sullivan]

In response to prints of Seydor's cut replacing Peckinpah's for print screenings...

Does anyone else agree that replacing the director's vision with the vision of someone else who had absolutely nothing to do with the original production and no approval from Peckinpah is really just a disgusting instance of censorship? Are the Warner honchos out of their minds?

 

[Richard--W]

oops
double post

Edited by Richard--W - 6/30/2009 at 05:44 pm GMT

 

[Richard--W]

Turner Classic Movies is showing Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid on August 4, a Tuesday, at 11:15pm (Pacific time, naturally), a day devoted to films starring James Coburn. The running time is listed at 115 minutes which is the length of Paul Seydor's version. Spicey stuff for TCM.
The Encore Westerns channel continues to show the 1973 Theatrical Version from time to time.
Edited to correct the broadcast date.
Edited by Richard--W - 6/30/2009 at 10:48 pm GMT
Edited by Richard--W - 6/30/2009 at 10:51 pm GMT

 

[Richard--W]

a new forum for fans of Sam Peckinaph:

www.earnedinblood.com

moderated by author and film maker Mike Siegel.
Have a look see and give it your support.

Richard

 

[Richard--W]

Quick reminder that Turner Classic Movies is showing the Paul Seydor cut of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid tonight at 11:15 pm, Pacific Time,
Keep watching Encore Westerns channel for the original 1973 theatrical version, which airs from time to time.

 

[Bob Cashill]

Encore, though, is typically pan/scan.

 

[ARublev]

Hi All I know I'm very late getting on board here, but I just want to say I agree 100% with everything Richard--W and so many others say about Seydor's cut of Pat Garrett. What Seydor has done is a disgrace. He has turned it into a completely different film. How can this be allowed to happen? "Pat" is possibly my favourite film of all time (Turner Preview Cut), and when I heard it was being restored and released on DVD I was ecstatic. What a letdown!!! If only he'd done a proper restoration on the Turner Cut as well, it wouldn't have been so bad. People could then watch both and see for themselves which is better. I think its pretty obvious why he didn't! The Turner Preview Cut is (almost) PERFECT! Simply put back in the two cut scenes, the one with Garrett and his wife, and the one with Ruthie Lee (the full versions of both these scenes, not the chopped down versions Seydor has in his cut!). Don't cut or shorten or tamper with or rearrange anything. Then restore THAT from beginning to end, and there you have it folks! THE greatest western ever made! Does anybody out there know if there's any new developments regarding this? Surely it can't be left like this?! Its sickening to hear that Seydor's cut is being shown on TV and at festivals, and truly heartbreaking to think this may be eventually considered the definitive version! Please God, no!

 

[BillyFeldman]

Sorry, you lost me at "THE greatest western ever made." I'm glad you think so. I don't know many who'd agree with you.

 

[Jon Smith]

ARublev, there is a fanedit which adds those scenes back to the Turner Preview cut. Ok its not official, but may be the best you'll get.

 

[ARublev]

"I don't know many who'd agree with you."Well, we probably don't hang in the same circles! Okaaaaay..... So obviously you don't rate ''Pat" very highly. Seriously though, I absolutely adore this film and lots of people agree with me. I've seen it more times than I can count, and each time I like and enjoy it even more than the last time and notice something new, etc. The sense of sadness and melancholy gets me every time. It has tragedy, humour, Peckinpah's trademark violence, the wonderful vignettes featuring the numerous faces from Westerns past, etc, etc. Not to mention James Coburns greatest ever performance. And Dylan's excellent score. I could go on and on. And Peckinpah's recurring themes of the passing of the West, of men out of their time, regretting their wasted lives and missed opportunities, have never been done better than here! I don't know if you're in the US Billy Feldman, but here in the UK and Europe "Pat" is an incredibly highly regarded film. The very respected Time Out Film Guide says in its review "there is a sombre, mournful quality which places the film very high up in the league of great Westerns." In the same guides review of Once Upon A Time In The West they claim that its "rivalled only by Peckinpah's Pat Garrett And Billy The Kid for the title of the best ever made"! If you take a look at Mike Sutton's excellent review over at the equally respected DVDTimes www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content/id/60755/pat-garrett-and-billy-the-kid.html, you'll see how much this film means to him. And in Jim Kitses' magnificent book Horizons West: Directing The Western from John Ford to Clint Eastwood, he says "Pat Garrett is Peckinpah's ultimate statement, the tragic moment frozen, his final western, his farewell to the western." In the documentary Sam Peckinpah's West: Legacy of a Hollywood Renegade, Billy Bob Thornton, Michael Madsen and Benicio del Toro ALL say they prefer "Pat" to The Wild Bunch! And pretty much all of Peckinpah's biographers, and several top critics, all believe that "Pat" is right up there with "Bunch" and rightly regarded, in hindsight, as one of Peckinpah's masterpieces. And I personally know many people who rate "Pat" very highly indeed. So there! It does appear I'm not the only one who likes it! P.S. Jon Smith cheers for the feedback on the fan-edit, I just wish it was done properly and got the respect it deserves "officially".

 

[Richard--W]

AndrewRublev, you are not alone.

Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid's was much admired among film makers and film buffs at the time of its theatrical release. When the Z channel broadcast Peckinpah's workprint for the first time its reputation skyrocketed. When the MGM laser disc circulated Peckinpah's workprint for the first time audiences were able to spend more time with the film, and its special qualities began to be understood. If anything, the DVD release has facilitated a dramatic reappraisal. There is no other western quite like it. Peckinpah invests his characters with motivations that are unique to the western. These are highly original characters for a western and the story is as sophisticated as any A-list drama. [As an aside, I wish that Peckinpah's next film Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974) rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article could receive a similar reappraisal and rediscovery. It's an epic film noir and his most accomplished and fully realized work, despite the attention-grabbing title].

The recreation of Lincoln and Fort Sumner, New Mexico Territory in 1881 is not inaccurate and shows careful research and tremendous care. I don't think the film has ever been credited with its earthy sensibility for frontier life and conditions. The Kid's escape from the courthouse actually happened in a way not dissimilar to how its depicted here.

Personally, I wish there were less vulgarity in the film. The vulgarity is an obstacle between the audience and the story being told. Some people can't see past the vulgarity. To his credit, Peckinpah actually cleans up Rudolph Wurlitzers' screenplay considerably. It is a neurotic, angry, base script. At times it is an incoherent script that wallows in a misogyny which does not derive from the historical basis of the story. The earlier draft and the later published version were too filthy to film and too filthy to even discuss here. The vulgarity that remains in the film stretches credulity to the breaking point sometimes. Peckinpah also improved the narrative drive and circular structure of the script. He brings the characters into sharper focus than did Wurlitzer's script. In a sense, Peckinpah is co-author, and most things that impress us today were put there by him.

On another level, I could make a case for the film's historical intelligence on one hand while criticizing its historical offenses on another. For example, the character motivations are reversed. Biographically speaking, Garrett had just turned 30 and the Kid was probably only 19 years-old when Garrett shot him. It was the Kid who was burned out and tired of fighting the Lincoln County War and took courageous steps to end it, while it was Garrett who looked ahead with optimism and ambition for his future. They had only known each other for a little over a year -- perhaps 16 months -- before Garrett became Sheriff of Lincoln County. But the fact that the film deals with such motivations at all is a virtue. Interestingly, as the film implies, the Kid enjoyed the support and good will of the people, while Garrett, after he was elected, did not, and his reputation among the Mexican population suffered after he killed the Kid. He would not be re-elected. Further, Fort Sumner was a privately owned ranch where many travelers stopped and some engaged in business arrangements with the Maxwell family. Prostitution was not one of them. The Mexican women were observant Catholics and did not hop beds as casually as depicted in the bunkhouse scene. All of which is irrelevant to any appreciation and enjoyment of the film.

By the way, for the second time this year, Turner Classic Movies is airing the Seydor version tonight at 11pm Pacific time, followed by a rare broadcast of MGM's 1930 Billy the Kid with Johnny Mack Brown. Check it out. It's an early talkie that gains immediacy by its very primitiveness. The opening title is preceded by an endorsement from the Governor of New Mexico, which got him into no end of trouble with the old-timer residents who objected to the film's inaccuracies. In 1930, many people who fought in the Lincoln County War and who knew Garrett and the Kid were still alive in New Mexico. These old timers began writing angry letters to newspaper editors to correct the mistakes, giving interviews, speaking to historical societies, and publishing their reminiscences. In fact the film provoked a storm of controversy more interesting than the film itself. MGM / WHV have been remiss if not downright oblivious in failing to recognize the value of and the interest in the original Billy the Kid. It merits a supplemented DVD release with a commentary.

Likewise, Peckinpah's workprint merits a proper restoration and a documentary that puts all the deleted scenes, alternate footage, and conflicting edits into a methodical order. The present state of affairs is an artistic crime.

 

[ARublev]

Thank you Richard "Pat" is a true masterpiece for all time and deserves better than this. Surely they can't just leave it like this? The thing is, with the sheer volume of negative reaction to Seydor's version of "Pat" (I could count its supporters on the fingers of one hand), wouldn't/couldn't WHV consider doing it again, properly, and re-releasing it? It's not like the footage is lost forever a la Magnificent Ambersons or something. They actually have the footage. It just needs to be assembled correctly. Did TCM used to show the Turner cut? And if so, why are they now showing Seydor's version? This is sooo wrong. The sad thing is that casual viewers will watch this and come away thinking 'Peckinpah's Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid is crap' when in fact its not Peckinpah's at all. TCM here in the UK shows "Pat" from time to time and I always understood it to be the Turner cut based on the running time (I've never watched it) but maybe they show commercials..... Wasn't there talk of a campaign/petition somewhere to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening? Seydor's cut is a travesty and should be withdrawn completely from circulation and every known copy in existence destroyed (unless of course Seydor wants to keep one copy for his collection!) There was absolutely no need whatsoever for a third version of this film! With regard to the historical authenticity/accuracy of the film, this is of course another of its remarkable and overlooked aspects. I was amazed when I did some research a few years ago on the real Garrett and the Kid to discover how close to the facts Peckinpah stayed. I don't really have a problem with the vulgarity. It was, after all, the Wild West, but I do see your point. By the way, I couldn't agree with you more regarding "Alfredo Garcia". Absolute masterpiece that truly deserves a reappraisal and rediscovery. Ditto Cross Of Iron.

 

[James 'Tiger' Lee]

I don't get why Warners picks and choose which films to let fans meddle with films. Enter The Dragon also suffers from pointless tinkering.