**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Larry Sutliff

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As much as I love HD DVD, I would have to agree that trying to keep the format going as before is not in the best interests of either the corporations involved, or the consumer. Toshiba should make a deal with the BDA, as should Uni and Paramount, and get the ball rolling for HDM. Toshiba can make dual format players to keep everyone happy, and we can all move on from this crazy format war.
 

FrancisP

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I'm not surprised. I know that dvdfile has been pro bluray. They haven't been as blatant or insulting as Bill Hunt but that bias does exist.

Dvd Review's statement is interesting in that it refuses to acknowledge both sides. They take the NDP Group numbers without acknowledging that the NDP
Group does not share their conclusions. They have laid out a number of reasons as to the numbers being the way they are. Another reason that could be added is that the bluray people led by Bill Hunt were putting out rumors that Universal and Paramount were abandoning hd-dvd which would leave no studios.

Indeed the NDP Group states that player sales were roughly even the week before. That confirms the fact that Warner's decision had nothing to do with the marketplace and everything to do with payoffs.
 

DaViD Boulet

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Francis,

while you're right that the NPD officially won't support any conclusion that the drop in HD DVD sales was a direct result of the WB announcement, they are simply stating the obvious: that one week of sales figures aren't enough to indicate a long-term trend which won't be known until several more weeks of data are available. Note that this doesn't mean that the Warner announcement had no affect... just that at this moment it's too early for them to state that it's the primary reason for the drop.


Uh, the week before was also the week before the WB announcment. If anything, the NPD numbers strongly suggest that the WB announcement did have some affect. Only time will indicate conslusively if it was the primary reason for the drop or just one of the contributing reasons the week immediately following the announcement by WB.
 

bigluigi

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What....more "experts???"
Will someone please explain to me the sense of urgency that Blu-ray fanatics seem to have as far as putting the "ole girl" down.

Perhaps you can write a convincing piece about how "free enterprise" no longer works in this country. Rather than using the time honored tradition of, "letting the consumer decide," we can let the experts do our thinking for us and ignore being used as pawns by an uncaring, manipulative corporate structure and their minions that puts greed above all else.

Perhaps the reader can demonstrate personally how this format war, which the consumer did not create, has, in any way, stymied the adoption of HDM. I have BOTH formats and I enjoy movies as I have never did before in a home theater setting and because of this I just don't have the heart anymore to passionately favor one format over the other. But I do resent what I consider a violation of a sense of fair play when I see fanboys, mostly Blu-ray, calling for Toshiba to cease and desist production of HD-DVD players for the "good" of HDM. If the "ole girl" is to die, let consumer apathy be the deciding factor.
 

Dave H

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The consumer essentially did decide as Blu-ray won every week of Nielson software sales in 2007 and sold more standalones during "crunch time" in December. I understand you like both formats, however, most consumers, retailers, manufacturers, and studios believe it's time for one format.
 

Mark Cappelletty

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No kidding (though DVDFile became much less useful to me when Dan Ramer, one of the dullest writers ever, took over from Peter Bracke). Bill Hunt's incredibly annoying and condescending attitude is almost enough to keep me from ever embracing BR; I've never seen anyone's once-objective opinion and reputation slide so quickly in my life. The take seems to be that if you ever supported HD-DVD, you're an idiot and you should burn your player, media and quite possibly your TV.

 

Manus

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Of course the ' alternate ending ' to the war could be here first thing in the morning . Release everything in BOTH formats and even the dumbest consumer would be able to make a choice of their own with no help from the U.S. Bank of Warner
No confusion just buy whatever you want and no need for 1m+ people to be coerced nto dumping their players and their discs 'for the greater good of BD ( er, sorry , HD' ) adoption


Just imagine , we've had 2 years of this nonsense and all we have to look forward to if all Hd-Dvd owners jumped into the sea is the Blu virus invading the SD forum to tell them how out of date they are , and they should bin their 'old spec ' tvs and join the revolution or else they'll be left behind and lost instead of lossless.

The ' militarisation' of our former favourite hobby is complete . Nobody can sit on the fence anymore , you're either with us or against....etc etc

I love my Wii


~M~

" Have you read some of those "signatures" on there? "

Yes . Have you been to Avs lately ?
 

Cees Alons

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Did Bill really write that? I'm surprised, I must say. He never made a secret of his own preference for BD, since a ear and a half, wasn't it meant otherwise, or some sort of joke?


Cees
 

Mark Cappelletty

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He didn't. But that's the vibe I get from his site -- and many of the postings here. Hunt's very showy statements about not accepting HD-DVD ad revenue seem to play up his own misguided notions about his own self-importance. It makes him -- and his site -- look bad. To be fair, I'd feel the same way if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

Dave Moritz

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The simple fact is that HD-DVD is failing and there is no way people are going to rush out and buy HD-DVD players, if they know there is only going to be movies from two studios available to them. I see no point in the format war continuing just because it might help bring profile 2.0 players out faster and hopefully drop Blu-ray hardware prices lower. I also do not see the point in deceiving the consumer by airing a Super Bowl commercial. You know darn well that Toshiba is going to pretend that they are not loosing the war. Toshiba is not going to mention that WB is removing there support for the HD-DVD format. They are most likely going to try to make the consumer think that there is more support than there really is. They will most likely push the envelope and come very close to being sued for false advertising and misleading advertisement practices.

I love my HD-DVD titles but this war is bigger than Toshiba, they claim they are the best choice for the consumer. Well if they cared about the consumers that much they would not be continuing a war that they can not win! Does anyone here think that Disney, Fox or WB is just going to go neutral and help Toshiba prolong this format war? The war is basically over and Toshiba lost! By prolonging the war with no chance of victory, and by trying to sell consumers a format with limited studio support. They might as well just piss on the industry, movies studios and the consumer while they are at it. This is not longer a matter of HD-DVD prolonging the war because they have a slight chance of success. It is about Toshiba hurting Sony as much as they can because if they can not capture the revenue stream for themselves, then Sony can't have it ether. It is no longer about doing whats good for the industry or the consumer, its about vindictive Toshiba and the greed that blinded them to the truth. HD-DVD is dying and most studios know it, retailers are picking up on it and so has the consumer. The stink of death is on HD-DVD and with retailers backing away and consumers returning there HD-DVD players. Toshiba is living in a demented fairy tail world and its time for them to wake up!

Other than the limitation in the audio department regarding lossless audio not being on every title. And even with less storage space HD-DVD is a dam good format. Visually I can not find fault with any of my HD-DVD titles, they are for the most part perfect. The DD+ tracks are so much better than the previous DD offerings. But with Dolby True HD why bother with DD+? And with Blu-ray titles offering Dolby True HD, DTS-HD Master Audio and uncompressed pcm why buy a HD-DVD with DD+? DD+ would be great for HD channels on dish or cable, granted that the system could handle the data rate of DD+.

IMHO picture wise its a draw between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Blu-ray has the edge in the audio department because the majority of titles offer lossless audio, and HD-DVD only has aprox 23% of its titles offering lossless. Blu-ray has the edge in regards to bitrate specifications which allow for every title to offer lossless audio. HD-DVD has the edge in the category of full spec players from day one. Blu-ray has the edge in the area of storage, studio support and hardware support.

Some can continue to complain about the lack of full spec Blu-ray players and they would be right. But IMHO HD-DVD was never the best format overall and at this time has such low support with studios and consumers, continuing the war seems to be a waste of time. It can only serve to hurt the industry and to keep consumers away from HDM.

Now Bill Hunt may very well be extremely biased but he does make a few good points that just happen to fit the facts. If this format war was not a blow out as it is close to being at this point in time. If there was more support for HD-DVD and if they actually had a slight chance of winning. I would have no problem about running out and buying HD-DVD titles w/ lossless audio like: Jurassic Park, Saving Private Ryan, Gladiator, Back To The Future and other titles. I do not want to buy these titles if I am going to only get DD+ tracks and then see them later on with lossless on a Blu-ray version. This war is over but Toshshiba is going to misslead the consumer and the only way the consumer will know the truth is because of honest sales people.




I do not like what Toshiba is doing to consumers or the industry! They have not bothered to get around to the issue of WB leaving, but they have no problem running a ad durring the Super Bowl. With the goal of getting the consumer to buy into a dying format with only two supporting studios.
 

Sanjay Gupta

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Toshiba is no longer selling HD-DVD players, what they are selling is a DVD player that makes your existing DVDs as good as HD, the ability to play HD-DVD is just incidental, atleast that is what they would like the consumer to believe. Why are they doing this? It's actually quite simple. Toshiba knows there is no money to be made from HD-DVD hardware, their cut throat pricing has insured that, and as a format they know HD-DVD cannot win. Thus, they would rather prolong the life of DVD, rather than see Blu-Ray subplant DVDs as the mass market format. I am sure all here are aware that Toshiba is the major stakeholder in the DVD format. Thus, rather than letting Blu-Ray take market share from DVD, it serves them better to perpetuate the DVD format, by claiming that their players will make existing DVDs look as good as HD. Will this strategy work? Considering that even the well informed cannot see thru Toshiba's hidden agenda, I am sure they with their 'Super Bowl' commercial will be able to hoodwink quite a few and atleast keep the confusion of mutiple formats alive. Thus succeeding in atleast slowing down the adoption of HD, which is what their new found objective is. The sad part, is that Universal & Paramount are falling for this hook line and sinker, without even realizing that they like any other studio have nothing to gain and only to lose from pandering to Toshiba's strategy. In a quote I recently read, even Unviersal is now talking about the great upscaling features of Toshiba HD-DVD players.

To some extent, even forums like this one, are unintentionaly supporting the cause of Toshiba and helping them prolong the adoption of HDM. There are many newbies who look to forums such as this one to help them in making such decisions as choosing formats. Thus, although I admit that the neutral stance taken by the 'Home Theater' forum from the ouset of the HDM format war, was the correct one then, it has now outlived it's utility and is a disservice to those that may be looking for help in choosing a format. It really is time, for this forum to take a stand and support a single format.
 

Edwin-S

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I don't see any reason for this forum to suddenly take a stand for one format. Newbies can look through any number of threads in the HD section and get a good cross-section of opinion on the qualities of each format. I don't think the HTF taking a stand would suddenly affect whether a person adopts HDM or not. All taking a stand would accomplish is the alienation of a good cross-section of their members who are HD DVD only. They made the right choice by remaining neutral, since it resulted in this forum being one of the few places where the advantages and disadvantages of both formats could be discussed with relative civility. If the staff here had sided with one or the other then a balanced dialogue would have been much harder to accomplish.

The actual stance of this forum should remain neutral as long as Toshiba and its partners refuse to throw in the towel on HD DVD. The best way to send a message to Toshiba, Universal, and Paramount/Dreamworks would be for format neutral people to stop buying HD DVDs. It is going to be hard to resist buying SPR if the rumours of its release on HD DVD turn out to be true, but I'm going to do my best to leave it on the shelf.
 

Jari K

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Perhaps Bits made some kind of "marketing deal" with Blu Ray Association, which prevents the advertising from the HD DVD-camp? Just speculating, of course, but these are the issues that are not "public" (PR-deals, and such).

Whatever the reason is, I don´t see that this decision is very harmful to the site. Blu-ray camp is probably happy to advertise in Bits, so Bits probably doesn´t "lose money" and the hardcore HD DVD-fans have been cursing the site for a while now. So nothing to lose.
 

Cees Alons

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Sanjay,

Two weeks ago, you posted exactly the same. This forum has a publicly stated, clear policy in this matter. We are taking a stand! If that policy doesn't suit you, feel free to find other places to linger, for it's not up for debate.
Of course you're also free to post here: if, and as long as, you respect our policies.

Unfortunately your logic is very flawed ("To some extent, even forums like this one, are unintentionally supporting the cause of Toshiba and helping them prolong the adoption of HDM" - not true, and what's more: why would Toshiba be a declared adversary all of a sudden?).

If you choose to ignore the unambiguous reply you got on your previous attempt, fine, but don't bother and insult us by repeating your message again.

Unless your real name happens to be Cato the Elder, that is.


Cees
 

Robert Crawford

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Furthermore, following Warner's annoucement, the marketplace has shifted and appears to be settling this format war. I have a hard time believing that forums such as this one or sites like DVD File and Digital Bits will have any real influence on what's taking place right at this minute. We'll see what the coming months will bring, but closure appears to be within sight and I expect our members to do what's best in their interests as to how they spend their discretionary monies during a time when our economy is quite shaky to say the least. From my personal perspective, I have advise my friends and families to stay out of the HDM until next Christmas because by then I expect we'll know one way or another.





Crawdaddy
 

Cees Alons

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Mark,

I wasn't questioning your impression, but the extension David added to it ("Don't forget to add that if you prefer Blu-ray, you're inherently biased."). I didn't believe Bill actually said that, and I still can't.


Cees
 

Hartwig Hanser

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This was a joke of David, of course. I guess his attempt to show that both sides have their implanted prejudices in this war.

I don´t post here often anymore due to the underlying aggressivity fuelled by the format war, but since I am typing already, I want to add that the post by Mark was one more that seems to slander Bill Hunt which I do not see as justified. I read the Bits regularily, and while Bills preference of Blu-ray is obvious and of course his opinion can be discussed, I never read this kind of arrogant condescence to HD DVD owners that Mark suggests. I never had the impression that Bill was calling HD DVD owners stupid and such. Perhaps some people tend to read to much in his columns? But of course, if anybody can cite such, I am ready to stand corrected.
 

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