"Music Clearance Hell" : Time for us to group together :) (1 Viewer)

[Glenn Overholt]

Ok, I just polished off another bottle, and I'm wondering what would happen if...

You find out who has the rights to WKRP, and find out how much it will cost to buy them for a DVD transfer.

You get a loan (1 year) to cover that and production and overhead, start the company up, buy them and announce that all seasons of WKRP will be out all at once in say, 1 year.

You'll quickly find out how many you need to run off after the preorders start up. Since keeping the original music is way too much, everyone would know that outright.

You cut the DVD's with their original music - and don't get permission from anyone. They get boxed up and sent out to Amazon and Walmart and whoever.

They come out and I am sure that if any were left on the shelves after the first day of the release, they would all be gone on the second day.

Of course, on the third day, you'd be threatened with so many suits it wouldn't be funny.

On the fourth day, you rest and file for bankruptcy.
Oh, you have your grandpa, who is termially ill, be the CEO.

Well, I thought it was funny anyway. I'm crashing out for the night.
Glenn

 

[John Watson]

As I said earlier, and as Jeff Kleist observes, maybe producers are now more aware of the potential issue, and can try to ensure future releases in (unimagined?) new formats can retain the artistic integrity of the original show. (Did I mean that about WKRP? )

BTW, has MTV saturated everyone's thinking so much that we can't have TV or movies without rock music slotted in to cue our emotions?

 

[JohnAP]

Even today, securing home video rights for a series while its in production means spending more money now that could be spent on the actual show. Things are starting to change, but still, the chances of a new show making it to a second season, let alone to dvd is so slim, they probably aren't thinking that far ahead. Less than two years ago, the idea of a show being released on dvd before it finished a syndication fun was still pretty foreign.

 

[TerryW]

When I asked whether or not shows had music changed for syndication runs I guess I should've been more specific.

I know the horrid music changes for the current "WKRP" versions but I have tapes of all the shows with the music intact and I got them from a syndicated run, granted it was way back in the mid-eighties, but still, it wasn't the original run.

And shows today like "The Simpsons" and "Seinfeld" have their music intact in syndication. So are the changes selective?

Finally, I'd still like to know if any of the music in The Sopranos was changed.

 

[JohnAP]

The music on Sopranos all appears to be intact, as far as I can tell. In his commentaries, David Chase talks about the songs that are playing and how he picked them. Given the high profile and high sales of the sets, I'm sure the costs are justified. Plus, its a given now that the shows will end up on dvd so they are probably one series that is securing home video rights as they go.

For shows like WKRP, it looks like bootleg tape trading will be the only way you can see the eps intact for a long time to come.

Someone mentioned Alias and Smallville above. Those are two releases I'm looking forward to so I'm a little worried. They both used their share of popular music. My bet is that they will remain intact though because those are shows that are hot right now, so they are probably projecting good sales. Generally, shows that are still in production or just ended do better than those that are a bit older. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

You find out who has the rights to WKRP, and find out how much it will cost to buy them for a DVD transfer.

Fox, I believe the quoted figure was somewhere in the neighborhood of $3 million. I'll tell you right now, I doubt Fox would sell $3 million worth of the entire series all told, let alone all the other royalties and production costs. If those factors ever change, I'll buy it in a second

And unlicensed production is just a way to lose even more money, because they will take all the money you spent on the discs, make you destroy them, THEN sue for damages

 

[Matt.Koz]

I am going to hide my face in shame after this suggestion as I don't think I'd want to see this happen and I can gaze into my crystal ball and see the responses but here goes: if companies pay for product placement within movies, why can't studios include ads in their DVDs to defray licensing costs. Then again, I guess we'd all just skip over the ads anyways but it was just a thought.

Excuse me as a go and dig a hole to crawl in.

 

[Adam Tyner]

So are the changes selective?

I'd imagine it varies from case to case. Perhaps some series ponied up additional cash to get the rights in perpetuity or at least for a very extended period of time. In others, maybe the producers continued to fork over cash to re-up the music rights.

 

[Jeff_HR]

I am going to hide my face in shame after this suggestion as I don't think I'd want to see this happen and I can gaze into my crystal ball and see the responses but here goes: if companies pay for product placement within movies, why can't studios include ads in their DVDs to defray licensing costs. Then again, I guess we'd all just skip over the ads anyways but it was just a thought.

Have you ever started an Universal DVD by hitting PLAY? They play their own commercial. You have to start their DVDs thru the chapter selection to miss the commercial. Studios can stuff in as many commercials on DVDs as they like as long as I have the option to bypass them.

 

[Chad R]

They paid for the music to be used in a specific instance, not in perpetuity. Like it or not, selling limited rights to music, movies and television is the cornerstone of the entertainment industry. There is no second piece of the pie. The entertainment industry is based around regenerating profit on already produced products. It's like holding a patent. Everytime an episode of Miami Vice generates revenue, the director, the creator, the producer, the actor, the writer, the composer, the bands who contribute music all get paid. Even the guy who just directed the pilot episode gets paid for every episode that generates revenue, even if he only ever directs the pilot.

And under these people ar a lot of little people who depend on this continuing stream of money, secretaries and janitors included. It's a large organization. If bands were to give away their music for free then there are a lot of people who would lose their jobs. Believe it or not, that's the micro-economics of the entertainment industry.

As a writer, I think it's fair that I earn money from my creation whenever it earns money, just like a patent holder earns money everytime his patent is used.

 

[Dane Marvin]

BTW, has MTV saturated everyone's thinking so much that we can't have TV or movies without rock music slotted in to cue our emotions?

I hope you understand that, for some people, the right piece of music at the right time makes for some of the most affecting moments in television history.

I think of the last couple minutes of the clip show before the Seinfeld finale when Green Day's "Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)" began to play. Or Neil Finn's "She Will Have Her Way" at the beginning of the second season opener of Sports Night ... or at the end of The Wonder Years episode entitled "Mom Wars", when Joni Mitchell's "The Circle Game" plays as the old home movie footage of Kevin with his mother rolls ... or ... (well, you get the idea).

I think with a series like The Wonder Years, you begin with the songs that cannot be replaced and work from there. Otherwise, I am of the school that would accept "some" replacement music on my DVD than have no DVD release at all.

But now when this issue crops up (and it's cropping up more and more), it makes me wish that Paul Feig and Judd Apatow had been behind the wheel of every television series ever.

 

[ChristopherBlig]

Wayne's World, we wanna hear those few chords of STAIRWAY!!! Don't be so cheap remaining leddies, let the song remain the same as it was when it was released in theatres

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Wayne's World, we wanna hear those few chords of STAIRWAY!!! Don't be so cheap remaining leddies, let the song remain the same as it was when it was released in theatres

Actually, as I understand it they REFUSED to license it to them. Zepplin has always been rather anal about such things

 

[TheLongshot]

Actually, as I understand it they REFUSED to license it to them. Zepplin has always been rather anal about such things

Considering that's the one song that Cameron Crowe couldn't get for "Almost Famous", I'd agree with that. (considering the other Zep songs on that soundtrack...)

Jason

 

[MatthewLouwrens]

BTW, has MTV saturated everyone's thinking so much that we can't have TV or movies without rock music slotted in to cue our emotions?

Nonsense - music has always been used, first in cinema, then on television, to cue our emotions. Right from the start of cinema, when the pianist accompanying a silent film would tie his music to the action, through to the orchestral scores (think the music from the Psycho shower scene) to the use of rock music in TV and movies, they are all intended to control and cue our emotions.

In the case of rock music, it is excellent for establishing a time and feel of a show, or an idea of a film. Someone mentioned Wayne's World above - excellent example - you could NOT make WW without the music. In terms of TV shows, look at Freaks and Geeks, where the show is absolutely set in the year 1980. The music used in the show is intended to give that authentic 1980 feel.

So movie music is supposed (ideally) to cue the emotions or fulfill some other role. Rock music is just one of those types of music that is used. It has nothing to do with MTV.

 

[John Watson]

Actually, since this thread is about the difficulty issuing DVD's when movies are laced with songs whose rights are so difficult to negotiate, the increasing use of rock tunes to set moods or ambience is an issue. Music actually composed for the movies is not usually a problem - Bernard Hermann was engaged to compose the music for Psycho.

A well chosen selection of pop music can certainly be an asset to a movie or program, but if we can't get a DVD of the program because of rights difficulties, we're mighty annoyed!

Whether more far-sighted production arrangements in recent years will reduce this problem remains to be seen.

PS - MTV certainly is the prototype of mixing music and image in way that makes rock videos look like mini-movies. Just listening to music has almost become an anomaly, and I suppose we now have movies that are overblown rock videos.

 

[MatthewLouwrens]

I would agree that the use of rock music is an major and frustrating issue. I was responding to the suggestion that I understood you to be saying, which is that MTV has led to a situation where audiences need rock music in movies to be guided in the appropriate emotional response. I was saying that that has been true since well before anyone invented rock music or television.

I apologise if I misunderstood you.

But now I'm not entirely sure what your point about MTV was. Was it that after MTV people no longer just listen to music (which would be far outside the subject of this thread, and would leave the cause for Napster's success confusing)? Was it that MTV has led to increasing use of rock music in movies (again, unlikely - wasn't Easy Rider well before MTV)? Or use of rock music for TV shows (possible, I really don't know, but it seems doubtful).

And I'm not sure that the increasing use of rock music is an issue at this date - it is an issue with some older movies or shows that date back more than a couple of years, but most new movies or shows would (or at least should) definitely include downstream rights for use of the songs in DVD releases.

The fact is, rock music has used and will continue to be used in movies and TV shows. Ideally, they should complement the emotion or mood of the movie/show, although there are exceptions. But use of music should always be a creative decision based on what is needed for the movie/show. It is unfortunate that a situation has arisen where past creative decisions have to be revisited at a later date, and I wish it hadn't happened, but such is life. But I would be very surprised if it affects any new movies or shows, and sadly it's too late for older shows, as the rights contracts will have been made years ago.

 

[Robert Ringwald]

It just comes down to the point that certain songs aren't exactly needed to get an emotion.

Felicity was supposed to have had most of the music replaced, but I still felt the emotion of the scenes from the first time I saw them. The music was the same type, so it worked.

For something like freaks & geeks, the original music would be very important however.

 

[John Watson]

Matthew, no problem. Yes, Easy Rider is an excellent pre-MTV example (and it's a soundtrack cd I can still listen to), but I think extensive use of rock music has become so common that now "certain songs aren't exactly needed to get an emotion" as the next poster says, but are thrown at a project like confetti at a wedding.

PS - Well expressed : "It is unfortunate that a situation has arisen where past creative decisions have to be revisited at a later date, and I wish it hadn't happened, but such is life."

 

[PienSavaca]

Paramount should do a 'trial balloon' by securing the rights to the first 4-5 episodes and releasing it as "volume 1". Make it $30 list price and EXPLAIN ON THE BACK the cost of aquiring music rights factored into the cost of DVD production. On the disc, they can even do something similar to the "Die Hard" DVDs "Why Widescreen".

WKRP fans followed the show around numerous time-slot changes, they'll certainly understand jumping thru the hoops to get the episode music intact. If this means acquiring the show four-five episodes at a time, rather than a season set, so be it.

At 4-5 episodes per release, a season of WKRP would take five DVDs at $30 each... or a cummulative $150. Asking $150 for a "complete first season" set would be outrageous, and would not ring up many sales. But $30 piecemeal, cash strapped fans can pick up one or two releases that contain their 'must have' episodes.... or even offer a 'best of' for each season.

Consider the following episode breakdown (strong episodes in bold).

Volume 1
Pilot (1)
Pilot (2)
Les On a Ledge
Hoodlum Rock
Hold-Up

Volume 2
Bailey's Show
Turkeys Away
Love Returns
Mama's Review

Volume 3
A Date With Jennifer
The Contest Nobody Could Win
Tornado
Goodbye, Johnny (1)
Johnny Comes Back (2)

Volume 4
Never Leave Me, Lucille
I Want to Keep My Baby
A Commercial Break
Who is Gordon Sims?

Volume 5
I Do, I Do... For Now
Young Master Carlson
Fish Story
Preacher

Best Of Season 1 (Bump list price up $5, crown jewels and all)
Hoodlum Rock
Turkeys Away
A Date With Jennifer
A Commercial Break
Fish Story