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Joker (2019 Movie)

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Sam Favate, Jun 13, 2018.

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  1. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    That was me. I just think the frequent statement that this is a "remake" of Taxi Driver misses the point of the movie, since the similarities are mostly on the surface. There are definite parallels to The King of Comedy, but as I thought about it, the one that came to mind as the greatest parallel is American Psycho for several reasons. The social conflict, NY setting (yeah, Gotham, but seriously...) and the time setting. They are told from opposite sides of the social coin, but express the same emotional dilemma. Finally the violent "behavior" of the protagonist and the reliability of the narrative. Arthur Fleck and Patrick Bateman are essentially the same person, born to radically different circumstances.
     
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  2. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    Maybe it depends on what each person sees as "surface similarities" but I think very fair to say Joker is very similar to Taxi Driver.
     
  3. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    ...doesn't make it a "remake".

    but anyway, this thread has been derailed enough, so I'll just let my previous explanation stand.
     
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  4. Message #464 of 493 Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    The Drifter

    The Drifter Supporting Actor

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    Watched Joker last week on Blu; this was my first time ever seeing the film. I held off on watching this due to the fact that I knew it was going to be extremely disturbing, and I was 100% correct. This is unquestionably one of the most unsettling & horrific films I've seen. Some comments:

    I liked the old red "Warner Brothers" logo at the beginning of the film - nice touch ;)

    Early '80's NYC (or, Gotham City) is presented as a hell on earth: Rampant & violent crime, unemployment, garbage in the streets (due to the strikes), etc. The final sequence with the rioting in the streets with cars on fire, etc. just further reinforces the hell-ish comparison/analogy.

    I'm a huge fan of both Taxi Driver & The King of Comedy. And, I don't see this as a rip-off of either of those previous films in any way, shape, or form. Yes, there are definite homages - but that's it. Anyone that sees this as a "copy" or "remake" of either of those previous films didn't see the same movie I did.

    This movie is firmly entrenched in the DC (comic book) universe mythology. Gotham City takes the place of NYC; Thomas Wayne; little Bruce Wayne (who later grows up to become Batman), etc.

    One of the most disturbing elements to the movie is that even though you don't agree with what he's doing, you still feel sorry for Arthur Fleck - despite that fact that he's a homicidal psycho. He is bullied throughout the film, thinks his father is Thomas Wayne for much of the movie & that he abandoned both him and his mother years before (due to his mother's delusions)....and then when he finds out he was adopted & also abused by one of his mother's bf's when he was young (which he found out from the file he got out of the hospital), he can't deal with the reality.

    Thomas Wayne is presented in an extremely unflattering light throughout the film. It's completely understandable why he slugged Arthur in the bathroom - due to his being justifiably pi$$ed that Arthur went after his son Bruce & also attacked Alfred the previous day. Despite this, it's obvious he's an arrogant, entitled fat cat that has no idea of the difficulties that the "common man" in the city have to endure each day. His defense of the three Wall street scum-bags that were killed in the subway is typical; even if he had known that Arthur had killed 2 (of the 3) in self-defense, it's obvious he would have still defended them; what a douche-bag. So, when he's killed at the end after leaving the movie theater with his family (which, if you're a Batman fan, you knew would happen) I honestly didn't feel that sorry for him. This is a far cry from the way this character & event have been presented in past Batman-related movies/TV shows/comics.
     
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  5. The Drifter

    The Drifter Supporting Actor

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    To add to my last post, some other comments:

    There has been a lot of discussion on what is & isn't real in Joker. I have purposely avoided "spoilers" before watching this so haven't clarified my opinion(s) with other reviews, but this is what I observed:

    The scene when the audience was applauding him @ the comedy club (where he was doing stand-up) was definitely not real.

    When I first saw the scenes where Fleck "interacted" with Sophie (the woman he liked @ his apartment complex), what I felt was that the following scenes were real & actually happened:

    1)The scene on the elevator (where he first ran into her & her daughter), including her mock-pointing a finger-gun to her head - due to being exasperated.

    2) The scene where he broke into her apartment & she found him sitting on her couch, muttering & delusional.

    The scenes that were not real included:

    1) Obviously, the scene where he ran to her apartment, suddenly kissed her, and she let him in & closed the door, etc.

    2) The scenes where she was a patron at the nightclub where he did his stand-up; where she was sitting with him @ the hospital with his mother; when she was with him in the streets reading the newspaper, etc. were obviously proven to be his fantasy later in the film.
     
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  6. Jim517

    Jim517 Second Unit

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    I thought Joker was excellent. Did Phoenix lose a bunch of weight for the movie, or is that his normal weight ?
     
  7. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    He lost a bunch of weight.
     
  8. Jim517

    Jim517 Second Unit

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    Why would they want him to lose the weight ? Weird.
     
  9. Colin Jacobson

    Colin Jacobson Lead Actor

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    The super-skinny Arthur showed how messed up he was. A healthier-looking character would've made him seem less extreme.

    Also, it's entirely possible - and from what I know of the actor, likely - that Phoenix chose to lose the weight, not that "they" wanted him to do so....
     
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  10. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    What’s weird about it? It happens all the time in Hollywood films.

    In addition to Joachin...

    Robert DeNiro (Gained and lost in Raging Bull) Oscar win
    Matthew McConaghey ( Dallas Buyers Club) Oscar Win
    Tom Hanks Twice ( Castaway, Philadelphia) Oscar win and nomination

    and many more.
     
  11. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    And let's not forget one of the most extreme of these weight loses for a movie role - Christian Bale for The Machinist. He lost a whopping 62 pounds and became positively emaciated.
     
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  12. Malcolm R

    Malcolm R Executive Producer

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    Yeah, Christian Bale is the poster boy for weight loss/gain for roles.
     
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  13. Bryan^H

    Bryan^H Lead Actor

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    I tried his Apples and tuna fish diet. And yup you lose a lot of weight that way.
     
  14. Jim517

    Jim517 Second Unit

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    I
    I understand that. For the role of Joker, it just didn't seem necessary.
     
  15. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    I thought it was. It added to the depth of the character.
     
  16. Jim517

    Jim517 Second Unit

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    And if he gained a bunch of weight, would that have added to the depth of the character ?
     
  17. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Depends on how the character was written.
     
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  18. Walter Kittel

    Walter Kittel Lead Actor

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    From a google query:

    What makes a person skinny?

    Causes. A person may be underweight due to genetics, metabolism, drug use, lack of food (frequently due to poverty), eating disorder, or illness (both physical and mental). Being underweight is associated with certain medical conditions, including anorexia, type 1 diabetes, hyperthyroidism, cancer, or tuberculosis.

    ---

    Drug use, lack of proper nutrition (due to poverty), and mental illness all seem like behaviors and characteristics that one could attribute to Arthur Fleck to one degree or another. For me, I think the weight loss suits the character.

    - Walter.
     
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  19. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Damn, some of you guys will argue about any thing like weight loss for a role in a movie about a character with severe mental health issues.
     
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  20. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Right? I Don’t get the argument at all.
     
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