Hi, Speed - iPhone event confirmed for 10/13 (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

So you don’t have to use FaceID to unlock a phone that has it? Why can’t they just state that clearly?

State what clearly? That you can use a passcode just like you can on an iPhone with TouchID? I think that's been understood for years. Nothing's changed: You choose whether to have your iPhone completely non-password protected, to have a password or passcode, and whether to setup the TouchID / FaceID.

It's all there in the settings. And Apple discusses how to setup passcodes and biometrics in support pages.

Use a passcode with your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch

Learn how to set, use, and change a passcode on your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch.

support.apple.com

Use Face ID on your iPhone or iPad Pro - Apple Support

Securely unlock your device, sign in to apps, and more.

support.apple.com

 

[DaveF]

Yeah, I don't care for FaceId either and would much rather have TouchId... though that didn't actually stop me from upgrading from the 7 to the 11 a year ago. I (still) don't use FaceId and just use a 6-digit passcode instead -- I'm mostly ok w/ that... as I'm actually not that crazy about using fingerprinting anyway though I accepted the tradeoff (as a net gain/positive) ever since my old 6s...

_Man_

Is this because FaceID doesn't work for your usage? Or you have some oppostion to biometrics?

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Is this because FaceID doesn't work for your usage? Or you have some oppostion to biometrics?

Just haven't warmed to the overall idea.

With TouchId, I eventually accepted the tradeoff of potential privacy loss. With FaceId, it just seems like taking another somewhat different step in that direction while not seeming to be as good as TouchId. FaceId may be more convenient than TouchId (and of course, passcode) to many, but convenience shouldn't trump everything... or I would've forgone passcodes and such altogether before TouchId and FaceId came into existence -- and indeed, some people simply didn't bother locking their mobile devices in the past or went w/ absurdly simplistic passcodes/passwords.

Now that I've gone back to using a (albeit 6-digit instead of 4-digit) passcode for a year, I'm not sure I'd even use TouchId again if Apple (or whomever else) returns that option... Probably yes if it's gonna work as before linked to something like the Home button, which one has to touch (and trust) anyway.

_Man_

 

[Josh Steinberg]

State what clearly? That you can use a passcode just like you can on an iPhone with TouchID? I think that's been understood for years. Nothing's changed: You choose whether to have your iPhone completely non-password protected, to have a password or passcode, and whether to setup the TouchID / FaceID.

It's all there in the settings. And Apple discusses how to setup passcodes and biometrics in support pages.

Use a passcode with your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch

Learn how to set, use, and change a passcode on your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch.

support.apple.com

Use Face ID on your iPhone or iPad Pro - Apple Support

Securely unlock your device, sign in to apps, and more.

support.apple.com

I never was able to find that information clearly on the product listing, so I was knocking products out of consideration and not glancing at support because I didn’t have the product.

The product pages generally always promote what’s new and exciting (understandable) but in my opinion rarely make it clear that one does not have to use those features.

The way I like to use my phone is not conducive to holding it up to my face every time I want to do a quick task and that’s just far too annoying to be the only way to use it, for me. I know we’ve talked about this before and I probably come off as a Luddite by now but many of the innovations that Apple puts into these things to make it more convenient to use makes it less convenient for my usage. I don’t even like the passcode or fingerprint; I miss being able to just press the button. If I could stay with this iPhone 5/iPhone SE form factor and functionality in perpetuity, I would.

 

[TonyD]

I rarely have to pick the phone up and aim it directly at my face.

Picks my image up just during the process of picking up the phone almost always.

I wouldn’t mind a touch login now because of the mask thing that makes Face ID useless.

 

[Nelson Au]

Are you guys concerned about a loss of privacy With FaceID and TouchID? That info I understood is kept locally on the phone, not transmitted to Apple. You don‘t have to use a passcode to unlock the phone. If you loose the phone, then the info on the phone is open to the crook though. I trust that my passcode and facial recognition data is only on the phone.

All my iPads that stay at home do not have passcodes. The only risk is a crook steals them from my home, then he can easily open them and wipe the info.

Its funny, the FaceID has been of course updating itself as in the past 6 months, I have not had a haircut, so my hair is longer and I have facial hair now. I’m pretty close to cutting off the facial hair, so it would be an interesting test to see if it can still read my face after I shave. Which I think it will as it’s measuring the contours of the face.

 

[DaveF]

Just haven't warmed to the overall idea.

With TouchId, I eventually accepted the tradeoff of potential privacy loss.
...

I surprised we’re still dealing with these misconceptions 7 years (!!!) after TouchID launched.

Touch ID - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DaveF]

...
I don’t even like the passcode or fingerprint; I miss being able to just press the button. If I could stay with this iPhone 5/iPhone SE form factor and functionality in perpetuity, I would.

You can turn off passcodes completely and just push the button to unlock the iPhone. That’s super duper not a good idea for most people. But you can if that’s your thing. (Apparently surgeons and nurses do this because they need access to phones in the OR and faceid doesn’t work with masks.)

And if you’re really set on keeping a button, you can get the iPhone SE.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I surprised we’re still dealing with these misconceptions 7 years (!!!) after TouchID launched.

Touch ID - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I said I haven't warmed to the idea of FaceId, not TouchId.

But despite the attempt to allay concerns about TouchId, that wikipedia entry actually does not address all possible concerns. It addresses the biggest, most obvious ones, but not all.

Anytime we use tech to do something new/more like that (largely for convenience's sake) necessarily means more potential for either privacy or security loss. That's just a plain fact regardless of the intentions of the makers. Think about it. Without TouchId, there wouldn't even be a fingerprint sensor on the Home button that we regularly press on such a phone. I get that the risks are essentially negligible and the gains worthwhile enough, especially since one also really has no choice of not having the sensor built-in on those iPhones anyway, so I went ahead and used TouchId starting w/ the 6s when that came out several years ago -- if I really were too concerned about it, I probably shouldn't even use the 6s at all... though that was actually also my company provided phone.

But FaceId? I just don't find it compelling enough to have a front-facing camera constantly scanning for my face to do it. And I'm trusting nothing untoward is being done w/ that camera and disabled FaceId algorithm, etc.

And no, I'm not someone unfamiliar w/ how tech work. I've been a software dev by profession for well over 2 decades and have a fairly strong background in comp sci. I'm also not completely paranoid about such tech of course... or I'd never use them -- I do know some reasonably intelligent, educated folks who are paranoid and resisted using smartphones and such in general because of that, including at least one former-coworker developer friend and another friend who's a community college prof in comp sci... plus a somewhat less paranoid relative who's a networking security expert type (now working in a CTO(?) role for moderate size company) and isn't quick to trust such tech either (and seems to lock down just about everything he can despite the inconveniences)...

And really, bugs and design flaws (and sometimes, bad actors) are real even if we (or often enough even the creators and devs themselves for some time) don't always know what they are...

Ever talk to people whom you're sure are trusting Big Brother too much for the sake of convenience? I certainly have (and you probably too if you think about it)... and there are waaaay more of such people than us -- China even has more of them than there are citizens in this country (and of course, very many of them are reasonably intelligent too)... not that I think we're actually in the same boat as them of course.

Anyway, all that's part of the reason I don't like being on the bleeding edge. I'd much rather let others be the guinea pigs and enthusiastic fodders of whatever potential fallout...

_Man_

 

[DavidJ]

I rarely have to pick the phone up and aim it directly at my face.

Picks my image up just during the process of picking up the phone almost always.

I wouldn’t mind a touch login now because of the mask thing that makes Face ID useless.

I generally like Face ID, but when I am not wearing my contacts, it no longer works. Having the option of Touch ID would be nice. Of course, it's not supposed to be as secure so there is that trade-off.

 

[Sam Posten]

The FUD keeps rolling. =)

 

[Sam Posten]

Verizon 'Nationwide' 5G Begins to Appear Ahead of iPhone 12 Launch

Verizon is filling in the gaps in its 5G network by borrowing 4G airwaves, as we may have just seen in Chicago.

www.pcmag.com

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

The FUD keeps rolling. =)

LOL. Some of us simply don't find some things compelling enough to bother (at this time) -- not claiming everyone else shouldn't or the like. But you do you w/ the cool kids' memes and what not...

_Man_

 

[Sam Posten]

LOL. Some of us simply don't find some things compelling enough to bother (at this time) -- not claiming everyone else shouldn't or the like. But you do you w/ the cool kids' memes and what not...

_Man_

Finding stuff compelling is different than having fear, uncertainty and doubt regarding the safety of products that are produced by the one consistently good actor protecting users in the mobile space with literally billions of devices in service and no major leaks. But you do you =)

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Finding stuff compelling is different than having fear, uncertainty and doubt regarding the safety of products that are produced by the one consistently good actor protecting users in the mobile space with literally billions of devices in service and no major leaks. But you do you =)

LOL. Nobody said Apple's a bad actor... though I haven't actually paid attention to how they deal w/ China instead of the USA when it comes to govt intrusions and such.

Anyway, stuff come w/ bugs and often enough design flaws, including security holes. Apple isn't God. No need to worship at its feet. Not like Apple hasn't had its (growing) share of issues afterall...

IF I actually feared Apple to be a bad actor, I wouldn't be using the 11 for the past year. Everything doesn't have to be a B&W, clear cut either-or...

_Man_

 

[DaveF]

I said I haven't warmed to the idea of FaceId, not TouchId.

But despite the attempt to allay concerns about TouchId, that wikipedia entry actually does not address all possible concerns. It addresses the biggest, most obvious ones, but not all.

Anytime we use tech to do something new/more like that (largely for convenience's sake) necessarily means more potential for either privacy or security loss. That's just a plain fact regardless of the intentions of the makers. Think about it. Without TouchId, there wouldn't even be a fingerprint sensor on the Home button that we regularly press on such a phone. I get that the risks are essentially negligible and the gains worthwhile enough, especially since one also really has no choice of not having the sensor built-in on those iPhones anyway, so I went ahead and used TouchId starting w/ the 6s when that came out several years ago -- if I really were too concerned about it, I probably shouldn't even use the 6s at all... though that was actually also my company provided phone.

But FaceId? I just don't find it compelling enough to have a front-facing camera constantly scanning for my face to do it. And I'm trusting nothing untoward is being done w/ that camera and disabled FaceId algorithm, etc.

And no, I'm not someone unfamiliar w/ how tech work. I've been a software dev by profession for well over 2 decades and have a fairly strong background in comp sci. I'm also not completely paranoid about such tech of course... or I'd never use them -- I do know some reasonably intelligent, educated folks who are paranoid and resisted using smartphones and such in general because of that, including at least one former-coworker developer friend and another friend who's a community college prof in comp sci... plus a somewhat less paranoid relative who's a networking security expert type (now working in a CTO(?) role for moderate size company) and isn't quick to trust such tech either (and seems to lock down just about everything he can despite the inconveniences)...

And really, bugs and design flaws (and sometimes, bad actors) are real even if we (or often enough even the creators and devs themselves for some time) don't always know what they are...

Ever talk to people whom you're sure are trusting Big Brother too much for the sake of convenience? I certainly have (and you probably too if you think about it)... and there are waaaay more of such people than us -- China even has more of them than there are citizens in this country (and of course, very many of them are reasonably intelligent too)... not that I think we're actually in the same boat as them of course.

Anyway, all that's part of the reason I don't like being on the bleeding edge. I'd much rather let others be the guinea pigs and enthusiastic fodders of whatever potential fallout...

_Man_

Not sure what you're saying regarding new security tech. My view is simple: evaluate on its merits.

There are no privacy concerns with TouchID and FaceID, by design. None have emerged. None have been reported. I challenge anyone to show otherwise.

New security features can also improve security and decrease privacy risks. Apple's biometrics do that for most people. Good security made easy is much better than excellent security made dificult, because then people go without. TouchID and FaceID gives the mass market security equal to a 6-digit PIN (last I read, a couple years ago), that they will use consistently becuse it's so easy.

There have been (are still?) biometric security features from other phone makers that were bad, that were trivially defeated, that store literal images instead of non-reversible numeric representations. Those are bad. They shouldn't be used. If Apple did that, it would be smart to eschew it. But based on seven years reporting and real-world experience, Apple did it right.

People might prefer or need the increased security of a longer alpha-numeric password over what TouchID and FaceID accomplish. That I get. People might find these biometrics don't suit their lifestyle or environment or profession, due to gloves or masks or protective glasses or what have you. That I get.

But this technophobia that the computer is stealing your fingerprint or face and sending it to world ... I'm surprised we’re still talking about these misconceptions 7 years after TouchID launched.

 

[DaveF]

Tomorrow evening I start making the real decision over which iPhone to buy and when.

I've been intent on upgrading all year. But now that it's impending, that $1000+ price tag is feeling real, and I'm starting to have second thoughts. I'm not traveling. I'm probably not going anywhere for the holidays. No NYC or international vacations anytime soon. My 8+ is just fine around the house and audiobooks to work.

New iPhone 12 would be awesome. But $1000 is feeling like a lot of money to me right now amidst <waves hands vaguely>

I look forward to watching the video tomorrow night after work. And then I can work on a budget of all the toys I hoped to buy this Fall and see where iPhone lands.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Not sure what you're saying regarding new security tech. My view is simple: evaluate on its merits.

There are no privacy concerns with TouchID and FaceID, by design. None have emerged. None have been reported. I challenge anyone to show otherwise.

New security features can also improve security and decrease privacy risks. Apple's biometrics do that for most people. Good security made easy is much better than excellent security made dificult, because then people go without. TouchID and FaceID gives the mass market security equal to a 6-digit PIN (last I read, a couple years ago), that they will use consistently becuse it's so easy.

There have been (are still?) biometric security features from other phone makers that were bad, that were trivially defeated, that store literal images instead of non-reversible numeric representations. Those are bad. They shouldn't be used. If Apple did that, it would be smart to eschew it. But based on seven years reporting and real-world experience, Apple did it right.

People might prefer or need the increased security of a longer alpha-numeric password over what TouchID and FaceID accomplish. That I get. People might find these biometrics don't suit their lifestyle or environment or profession, due to gloves or masks or protective glasses or what have you. That I get.

But this technophobia that the computer is stealing your fingerprint or face and sending it to world ... I'm surprised we’re still talking about these misconceptions 7 years after TouchID launched.

Again, you haven't actually addressed what I said. You (probably much like Sam) are reading stuff (as mere technophobia) into my response despite me clarifying some of the rationale I don't use FaceId (so far) -- along w/ my brief background info meant to dispel unwarranted, offhanded accusations (of technophobia) -- but had been using TouchId (ever since I started using an iPhone 6s) until Apple took that option away (when I upgraded to an 11 from my old 7).

I simply choose not to use FaceId so far is all... because I just don't find it compelling enough (for me) while it in fact does expose oneself that bit more to risks/issues/side-effects even if they're negligible and so far "unreported" (beyond certain specific use cases you mentioned). And again, the risks/downsides you're likely thinking may not be all there are... not that I necessarily think much if any of them will actually occur. Besides any negligible concerns about privacy and security, having a camera constantly scanning for a face to match probably uses extra battery power for instance -- and I'd rather not waste power on something I don't find that compelling. There can also be other side-effects to our (over)reliance on tech that we may want to (re)consider, eg. our ability to memorize things as a useful skill may be eroded, which I definitely notice in general.

And I didn't claim at all that others or some large majority of folks shouldn't use FaceId anyway -- I pretty clearly said that. And I'm not some avg person who neatly falls into what you're talking about... the one who may otherwise not even bother locking his/her mobile device. It's just my own choice based on my own (occasionally revisited) evaluation of my own usage and "working" amalgamation of facts and opinions.

And I'm not saying all my conclusions are somehow perfect or not need revisiting from time to time of course -- that's not me at all.

And again, I never suggested Apple to be a bad actor and then later explicitly clarified I don't believe they are (in response to Sam)... even though they do clearly serve their own interests nonetheless and aren't beyond reproach, eg. the whole performance throttling cover-up issue, which may actually be innocuous enough, especially if they had been more upfront about it, so your point(s) based on that is unnecessary.

But seems like you guys simply can't understand or accept that everyone else doesn't have to think and act just like you to still be rational and make much of any sense, instead of being merely paranoid/phobic, LOL. Seems like you're just being phobic of other viewpoints contrary to yours instead...

_Man_

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Verizon 'Nationwide' 5G Begins to Appear Ahead of iPhone 12 Launch

Verizon is filling in the gaps in its 5G network by borrowing 4G airwaves, as we may have just seen in Chicago.

www.pcmag.com

Yes, but is it compatible 5G?

I talked about this in one of the threads but Verizon isn't using the faster 5G that the iPhone would need.

I can be more specific -- based on what I heard on iMore (I posted elsewhere) -- but I am heading out the door for an 8-hour trip. Will check back.

 

[Sam Posten]

This is the pooh-poohing of 5G before launch. Let's see what it actually looks like on launch day.