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Help: upgrading to Atmos

Discussion in 'Beginners, General Questions' started by joms, Nov 14, 2019.

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  1. Message #1 of 28 Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    joms

    joms Auditioning

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    [​IMG]


    Planned system:
    TV = Samsung 78"
    Amp = Denon X3500H or X4500H
    Speakers = Klipsch RP-600M
    Sub = 1x SVS PC13 Ultra
    Center = Klipsch RP-504C
    Surround = Mission M7DS Bipolar
    Atmos Height 1 = 2x Klipsch in-ceiling CDT-3650-C II
    Atmos Height 2 = 2x Klipsch in-ceiling CDT-3650-C II

    Note1: This will be done in our Bedroom. Room size is around 15sqm. Ceiling height is around 9 feet. There is a bay window in front where the TV and speakers sit. There is a big window on the right side as well.
    Note2: No space for another subwoofer unless I give up my SVS PC13 Ultra and get 2x small SVS SB12 (sealed)
    Note3: This will be used for 100% movies/video via Netflix. No blueray player and no music listening and the like.


    Question:

    1) With my room setup, will I see a significant benefit in going 5.1.4 or should 5.1.2 be good enough? (note: additional $1000+ to go 5.1.4)
    2) In "A" (see picture), will it be a problem if my Atmos rear speakers are just on top of the MLP and not in the rear?
    3) In "B" (see picture), what would be the best surround for me, monopole or bipole? (should i get a new surround or is my current mission M7ds good enough? I read somewhere that Atmos doesn't work well with bipolar/dipolar speakers that much)
    4) In "B" (see picture), should I angle the surround speakers downwards? It is currently around 5 feet above ear level.
     
  2. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    Did you have a question?
     
  3. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    sorry for some reason the text got deleted when i posted awhile ago....
     
  4. Message #4 of 28 Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    John Dirk

    John Dirk Cinematographer
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    Welcome! - My recommendations are below but, respectfully, I have to ask why you would consider implementing Atmos in a room that is really not suitable for it. It just seems like a lot of money to spend and not get optimal results. Is this going to be your main theater room?

    1) With Atmos, the more speakers the better is the general mantra however if they cannot be properly placed you may not be happy with the outcome.
    2) See #1. Short answer is "yes."
    3) I would steer clear of dipole. I currently have them in my room and will probably be replacing soon. Initially I felt they would be a better choice since they can direct sound to both the front and rear rows of my room but 99% of the time I'm the only one in there, so...
    4) Any reason they can't be mounted closer to ear level? If that's not possible then a slight downward trajectory might be a good idea.
     
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  5. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    I agree with John's sentiments. I'm also moving away from di/bipole surrounds. They used to be preferable, years ago, but soundtracks have evolved and benefit from more distinct sound placement.

    Regarding the height of your surrounds. If they are too high, and your current setup is significantly too high, they are simply too high. Aiming the speakers down makes zero difference in that respect. The sound comes from where it comes from, regardless of how the speakers are aimed.

    I'm always curious, why Klipsch? It seems that 99% of people who are setting up a new system want to use Klipsch. I've found that salespeople tend to act like that's the only brand in existence, and I suspect they must offer massive spiffs (commissions from the manufacturer) to get them to force their brand down people's throats. I've had several people tell me that salespeople they go to won't even talk about any other brand of speaker.
     
  6. John Dirk

    John Dirk Cinematographer
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    I don't want to derail the thread but, for me, it was the sensitivity specs and [if I'm honest] appearance. I still have my SVS Prime Towers just in case I change my mind but may I ask you "why not Klipsch?" :)
     
  7. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    Thanks for the reply.

    I can't bring down the left surround speaker because if i do, then it will be located on the bathroom door (the picture shown above is not entirely accurate, the door should be bigger and extends to the corner)
     
  8. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    Well, since I will be using this system for video 100% of the time (via netflix / TV) then I was looking for a big center speaker so that dialogue won't be hard to hear. I saw the Klipsch 504C and read the reviews which seems good. Along with this, i've read that they aren't hard to drive at all and the price seems good. Is there any other speaker brand you would like to recommend that would be good for 100% netflix video and TV? (no music listening / no gaming)

    note: my system is located in the masters bedroom and is mostly used for video only.
     
  9. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    1) That's really not how it works. Any decent speaker that's had the levels properly calibrated will allow dialog to be heard just fine.

    2) Klipsch speakers are easy to drive, but considering the size of the room and the fact it's a bedroom, that's probably not a major consideration, unless you want neighbors a block away to hear the movie you're watching. Besides, the efficiency of a speaker is only one very minor factor in deciding on a speaker. Ironically, it has little to do with how good they sound, in most situations. Plus, I find them to be rather over-priced for what you get. There are hundreds of speakers brands to choose from, several of which have distinct benefits over Klipsch. Check out Paradigm, as one of the many, many, many options. I personally like the ELAC Debut line for a really good, economical speaker, which happens to cost about 1/2 of most Klipsch, and have significantly better sound. Their imaging is excellent, which will make a huge difference with surround sound. There are so many to choose from.
     
  10. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    Thanks for the reply. So I should look for a better sounding speaker with better imaging than Klipsch right? I will try to look around and check Paradigm and ELAC Debut. By the way, I am from the Philippines so we don't have that much choices here unlike in the USA. Aside from Paradigm and ELAC, are there any other brands you would recommend if the focus is 100% movie/netflix video only? If you could give the specific model of the speaker, so much the better. My budget is around that of the Klipsch (US$650 fronts and $600 for center).

    By the way, I like to play things loud so I was looking for a big speaker so that I won't have any fear that the speakers would get broken when I do play things loud.
     
  11. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    You’ll need to give us some examples of brands that are available.
     
  12. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    Ive seen paradigm, elac, wharfdale, svs. I can't remember the others. Is there any favorite brand which is focused on videos/movies only? At first I thought Klipsch was that brand since most are getting klipsch for video/movies but apparently they aren't that good as per your post.
     
  13. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    There’s a strange tendency these days to claim the only important factor In speakers is efficiency, but that’s certainly not true. Not by a long shot. This distinction between music and movies is marketing, not reality. You want dynamic speakers, as opposed to something like electrostatics, but those aren’t something you’re considering.
     
  14. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    The brands you mentioned are all worth considering.
     
  15. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    I wonder if people consider Klipsch to supposedly be better for dialogue due to them tending to be "bright" at higher frequencies. Personally, I always found Klipsch speakers fatiguing after awhile, especially anything that used a horn tweeter which was one of their selling features.
     
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  16. John Dirk

    John Dirk Cinematographer
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    I would speculate that most people [myself included] are simply not experts and trying to get the best available bang for their buck. Mine were indeed "bright" but that was easily tamed.
     
  17. JohnRice

    JohnRice Executive Producer

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    That's not exactly what I'm saying. I've just observed that about 98% of people who ask about new setups have already decided, or been directed to Klipsch. I've heard from several of them that salespeople they encounter don't seem to even be willing to discuss any other brand, which makes me suspicious. There are a lot of decisions and compromises to make when designing a speaker, and efficiency always comes at the sacrifice of other things, some of which I personally find to be far more important in a speaker.
     
  18. Message #18 of 28 Nov 17, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
    John Dirk

    John Dirk Cinematographer
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    Well stated and exactly the type of information I was looking for. We all have our areas of expertise [and I know this is one of yours] then there are our hobbies. When it comes to computers, networks, etc, I consider myself [relatively speaking] an expert since that is what I have done for a living for over 30 years but I have never done anything with a speaker aside from purchasing and enjoying it. :) I also do my research but, as you illustrate, [if you have no objective knowledge] even research can be heavily influenced by marketing in the today's world.

    So, for me, I wanted a little more "punch" from my speakers at lower volumes. I figured the increased sensitivity of the Klipschs would allow my amps to get more out of them than the SVS Primes. Sadly, the SVS Ultra Towers were a non-starter due to the side-mounted woofers.

    @joms - Please forgive me for derailing your thread. Happy to help with any other questions you might have and @JohnRice is one of our foremost experts here, so you're in good company.
     
  19. joms

    joms Auditioning

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    John - thanks very much for your help. If I can only audition 3 to 4 speakers, what would you suggest which would give me the most performance for my money/budget?

    As much as i want to audition everything there is, I don't have that much time on my hands (some or most of those places are far from where I am and I got ton of things to do at work and at home). I also have to do this within a certain time frame so that I can install the wires and ceiling speakers (carpenter will soon fix roof) else my better half might reconsider things and not allow me to spend for this home theater of mine lol.

    It would really help if i can just listen to 3 or 4 then choose and get things done so if you can give me your 3x best suggestions for speakers (LCR) then i'd be most grateful.

    My budget = front (around USD $600) / center = (around USD $650)
     
  20. John Dirk

    John Dirk Cinematographer
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    You seem to be pretty much decided on implementing this setup despite what you're hearing here. I'm not trying to be disrespectful of your choices as it's your money and, [even with the diagram] no one can know your space or ultimate goals like you, but I am curious as to why.

    As far as speaker recommendations, there are others here who are much better qualified.
     

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