Fooling yourself about 5.1 soundtracks... (1 Viewer)

[Cees Alons]

At least we won't lose anything else, if the DD and DTS soundtracks on those DVDs having both are replaced with a soundtrack that's more than twice as big as the DD alone.

Speaking of the benefits of less compression...


Cees

 

[Seth--L]

I think the better question to ask, is if either DTS or DD detract from the viewing experience. While DTS might have a slight edge on DD, it's not a gap like the difference between stereo and surround sound. A DTS track will not make a movie any better nor will a competently mixed DD track reduce the quality of the film viewing experience for the reason that it's not a DTS track.

With surround sound mixes DD gets the job done quite well, and I rather have as much disc space as possible go towards picture quality instead of the inclusion of a second surround sound track that only about 10% of consumers have the capability to playback.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

I think that the great thing about possibly having PCM multichannel for movies and concerts, etc. is that we would finally hear them the way the sound mixers envisioned them.

DTS and Dolby Digital, by their very nature, throw out too much data. With MLP you lose none of it since the file is basically "zipped" and "unzipped" like a downloaded PC program.

I just heard the E.T. remastered soundtrack in 5.1 (re-engineered by Shawn Murphy for the Anniversary theatrical re-release and the original 1983 version for DVD). Although it was released in SACD/DSD (and AOD would probably have high rez. PCM) it blows the frickin' doors off the same soundtrack that is currently on the DTS and Dolby Digital encoded tracks on DVD. For a somewhat older analog recording you finally get a much richer, full bodied sound with greater detail and breadth. I can only imagine how that kind of a remastered recording, let alone a brand new digital one, would sound incorporated into the actual movie for our own home theaters!

The fact that you could finally hear a master quality recording of a film's score or concert release is enough for me to salivate over the possibilities with AOD (if they don't screw things up).

And isn't it true that a film's score is the dramatic heart of most films anyway??

I haven't even talked about the micro detail that is in some carefully crafted soundtracks that are now lost because of DTS and Dolby Digital compression.

Dan

 

[Seth--L]

If so, I would see that to be problematic since film is a visual medium. IMO, most films fail to use music as more than just a cue to help let the audience know what emotions they should be feeling during a particular scene.

 

[Lewis Besze]

To be honest, I seriously doubt that MLP will be the choosen audio codec for HD-DVD,and the fact that it's "space hog" isn't the reason IMO.Compatibility isuues[with pre/pros/receivers] and Dolby's current monopoly are.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

Lewis,

According to the interview in WSR they chose ~30 Megabits/sec for AOD specifically for high resolution audio and video.

MLP and Dolby are synonymous. Dolby owns the licensing rights to MLP; they got them from Meridian because Dolby has more muscle in the industry, and Meridian needed that. I very much doubt Dolby would have a problem with putting a high rez. MLP/PCM track in the specs., especially since it would be MLP plus Dolby Digital (for backwards compatibility). A win-win situation!

The very reason for MLP is so that they could compact PCM at high resolution into a much smaller space. As is, PCM 24/96 5.1 using MLP uses only about an 8 Megabits/sec data rate.

If for some bone headed reason AOD only uses the old DTS and Dolby Digital formats, then I'd say that Blu-Ray and AOD will be a toss up.

Dan

 

[DaViD Boulet]

If so, I would see that to be problematic since film is a visual medium. IMO, most films fail to use music as more than just a cue to help let the audience know what emotions they should be feeling during a particular scene.

Silent films are a visual medium. All other films are an audio/visual medium.

Just watched Moulin Rouge and Lord of the Rings Two Towers. Sound plays a signficant role in both of these films...it would be both unfair and unsound (pun intended) to try to "rank" the priority of audio compared to video presentaion. The best approach is just to grant that audio plays a very significant role in many films where the creative artists choose to take advantage.

Just as we can also think of many films that don't take full advantage of the sound potential, there are many films that don't take full advantage of their visual potential. That's not grounds for an inferior (low fidelity) video codec and neither should films that don't take full advantage of audio be grounds for an inferior audio codec.

-dave

 

[jonathan_little]

IMO, most films fail to use music as more than just a cue to help let the audience know what emotions they should be feeling during a particular scene.

Yes, that's something that film music has always been used for. Speed up the action, slow the action, create romance, generate suspense, enhance the punchline to a joke... These things are sometimes accomplished by using good film music.

 

[Lewis Besze]

The very reason for MLP is so that they could compact PCM at high resolution into a much smaller space. As is, PCM 24/96 5.1 using MLP uses only about an 8 Megabits/sec data rate.

That's a lot of "real estate",I was hoping that the allowed bandwith[30mbps] would be larger.Did they choose a new video compression yet?

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Silent films are a visual medium.

'Most' Silent Movies had 'soundtracks'.
A score, that was played to cues in the film.
I had the good fortune, too hear Mr. Mitchell.
The last of the Silent Movie players.
I knew about 'mood music', to silent film.
However, was shocked too hear punches & falls, played out as well, during a silent cartoon.
GREAT STUFF!!!

 

[Ed St. Clair]

They only provide "consultants" if they are requested.

Are we provided a 'better' soundtrack, if the company that designed & built the equipment, has no or very little input, on how it is used?

 

[Ed St. Clair]

All of this bickering will be pointless if AOD gives us multichannel, high resolution PCM.

I would hope this will happen as well.
Maybe then, the 5" disc format will surpass the sound quality found on DTS LD's.

However, it still leave's us with this 'less than great' DVD debate.
The DVD format 'promised'; better than LD video & better than CD sound.
And all these years later, we STILL fighting about the audio.
Shame.

 

[JonZ]

I dont have time to look thru all the posts here so I dont know if this has already been mentioned.....

My DVD player is one of the first made in 97, no DTS, so I cant confirm this,but I remember reading the DVDfile review for Gladiator and it stated the DTS track was vastly superior to the DD5.1.


But I agree most 5.1 mixes are hardly worth complaining about.Most new mixes sound amazing. Even the older DVDs such as Strange Days (which killed a friends surround speaker) are excellent.

People who complain about such things are just another example of being spoiled by technology.IMHO of course.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

the DVDfile review for Gladiator and it stated the DTS track was vastly superior to the DD5.1.

A different (re: superior) mix was used by the evil folks at DTS.
This, unfortunately, makes the DTS sound better than the DD.
Hang Them! I say.

If you'd like to learn more, check out Bjoern Roy site.
Or, ANYTHING, this guy has ever post there at HTF.
Guy's brilliant!
And a true HT miracle!

 

[Dan Hitchman]

Of course the DTS-ES 6.1 version would have a different mix on Gladiator (and any other ES 6.1 track) because the back channel is discrete, whereas the Dolby EX track has a matrixed back channel.

And here again is why DTS and Dolby Digital have gotta go! If you have one superior master quality soundtrack at PCM 24/96 (or even 24/192 if it's only stereo) then you can't say, well two different mixes were used and one company is lying or cooking the track, or blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Dan

 

[Ed St. Clair]

People who complain about such things are just another example of being spoiled by technology.

I SURE hope so!!!
I LOVE "being spoiled" by new tech toy's!
BRING IT!
Much better, IMNotSoHO, then "being spoiled" by old technology.
Remember, there are people that SWEAR; 78 shellac records, played on a crank turntable, with a metal needle, though a brass horn, is ABSOLUTELY; The best way too listen to recorded music.
I've met them!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

24/96 resolution audio and unfiltered 1080 progressive-scan images aren't being "spoiled". It's what we should have. It's what audio and videophiles are supposed to want...to have their picture and sound be as transparent to the source as possible.

Anything less is a compromise.

Standard-def DVD, in all of its glory, is a compromise in both picture and sound.

Hopefully HD-DVD will not encompass the same compromises.

-dave

 

[Lewis Besze]

Are we provided a 'better' soundtrack, if the company that designed & built the equipment, has no or very little input, on how it is used?

You tell me.

 

[Kevin M]

Are we provided a 'better' soundtrack, if the company that designed & built the equipment, has no or very little input, on how it is used?

I suppose it depends on the mixing engineers but my point was that Dolby let the equipment speak for itself from day one and as we all have heard, if done properly, DD can sound fantastic...no need to sweeten anything beyond what the original film engineers intended...in theory originally done behind closed doors by DTS to make the format sound more dynamic....conspiracy theories everywhere!!!

However I have to say, try comparing side by side two DD & DTS tracks derived from the same audio source with no sweetening on either format (as on many Anchor Bay titles or on Big Trouble In Little China for instance..), suddenly the superiority between one format or the other is far less distinguishable....odd no? Sorry Ed, I just can't help but raise your hackles on this tired (and IMO primarily elitist driven) subject.

 

[likestowatch]

David or anyone else,
I remember the talk about DTS boosting their levels, but I haven't been reading htf.com as religiously as I used to. Does anyone have more info, links, or papers on this?