Fooling yourself about 5.1 soundtracks... (1 Viewer)

[Steve Y]

:rolleyes

I'm sorry to say I have nothing to contribute to this discussion. But I have a reason for posting. I'm just checking in to make sure everyone's doing OK. If you jump in this pool it's for the long haul. Lemme know if you need refreshments, perhaps a glass of water or a protein shake. Maybe a lawn chair, a blanket? ...

s!

 

[Michael St. Clair]

I think Mike Knapp of [HTT] held some kinda gathering with some of his website members,and he claimed that he could pick out the DTS track every time,and he didn't know[by having visual clue] which one is playing.

That kind of test has absolutely zero value in terms of which testing which codec is better.

Zero.
Zilch.
Nada.

(I am a regular HTT member, and I remember the test well, and I bear no ill will against Mike Knapp nor do I think he did anything wrong. I suspect he will agree with my assessment.)

(I have edited conditions 2 and 3 of my post to make it clear that I was referring to the encoding process)

 

[David Judah]

Because until somebody can come up with something like this, you need to drop this "DTS codec is better" nonsense because such a position is 100% unsupportable.

I think you're taking this a little too seriously; it's only people's opinions and they are entitled to them. Like I said before, IMO, on paper DTS does have an edge if efficiency isn't the primary concern. It could, among other things, play a part in some people's perception that DTS is superior.

Also, not everyone comes into this from an engineering POV, where double blind tests and lab measurments are the determining factors in preference. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong way to look at it, just that there are other ways people form opinions.

It might not be valid to you, and that's OK, but reality can be a tricky thing--just ask the Philosophers or the Wachowski brothers.

DJ

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Nada.

I can't comprehend, unless you changed your mind from one post to the next, why you would say; "scientific or not".
And then BLAST, a fellow HT'ers test with; "Zero. Zilch. Nada."
What DO, you mean, Michael St. Clair?
Are you saying Mike Knapp, by being able to "pick out" the DTS track every time, is still uncapable of discerning which codec is "better"?

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Can anyone reference any kind of test where this was done and most/all listeners had a substantial preference for DTS.

Have you ever read a DVD review with DTS/DD in WSR.
Widescreen Review, has a forum on this very site!
I don't know if your aware of this mag..
And, I can not speak for the 'purity' of the reviewers.
However, they do go to some length, too insure equal playback conditions.
Their reviews, almost always have DTS more "transparent" than DD.
I know, not ALL DTS/DD DVD's are 'equal'.
Butt, I would hazard a quess that a few of the dozens & dozens of DTS/DD DVD's that WRS has reviewed, would be 'equal', from the soundtrack stand point.
Hope you find WSR, helpful, in your search for an answer to your "quote", found above.
Good luck!

 

[GregK]

Ed,

WSR is well known for being anything BUT objective when it comes to DTS vs Dolby Digtal.

 

[Lewis Besze]

That kind of test has absolutely zero value in terms of which testing which codec is better.

I tend to agree with you,however it fit's[sorta] your quest for unscientific test being conducted.Another thing we can agree on too,that whatever the outcome of that DVD group test David is talking about,some people won't "like" it for sure.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

You mean when DTS themselves did the encoding?

There's a reason dts soundtracks sounded 'so much better, bigger bass!' for the first few years of DVD, when dts did the encoding themselves behind closed doors. And no, it's not because they knew the equipment better.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

I can not speak for the 'purity' of the reviewers.

Are you saying, WSR DVD reviews, do NOT qualify as NEITHER; "scientific or not" scientific???????????????

 

[Ed St. Clair]

dts did the encoding themselves behind closed doors

And, DD did the encoding themselves behind OPEN doors!

 

[Ed St. Clair]

some people won't "like" it for sure.

Lewis Besze,
I liked the test DD did themselves.
There were three.
In one, it "proved' full bit rate DTS was more transparent to that group.:b
Does that mean the other two groups, were without a clue?
Does it mean that the one group, were just idiots?
What I do like, though there is a terrible amount of frustration connected to this subject (most of which is started by me), is that I really do believe better 'sound' will come out of all 'this'.
If we could just chill & get the word out.
I think the benefit will be too us all.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

And, DD did the encoding themselves behind OPEN doors!

Exactly. Or, as you can do with dts now, you bought the encoding equipment and did it yourself.

Remember, there's consumer grade equipment that does DD 5.1 encoding in real time; the Xbox, for example. It's not all that hard. But for quite a while, dts would NOT let anybody other than themselves encode audio with their stuff.

Don't forget, also, that the dts codec used in DVDs is NOT the same codec as used for theatrical movies.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

But for quite a while, dts would NOT let anybody other than themselves encode audio with their stuff.

But does that alone make it wrong?
Or, evil?
Did they do it because no one else was trained at the time?
Or, something much more diabolical?

They did indeed 'fudge' on the surrounds & bass.
And getting 'better' masters, like in the case of The Haunting, wasn't a "BAD" idea, was it?

If the whole problem here is DTS using better sources, I see no 'problem'.

However, if it's 'TRULY' about; we have not been able too "properly", test the difference between the two formats.
Than, yea!
We got a problem.
Let's just have fun, going back & forth about it.
Not, COMPLETELY dismissing someone's personal take on which is better.
Everyone's opinion is valid!
Until proven otherwise!
Not, no one's opinion is valid, until the ultimate test (yeah, like that's going too happen!), that EVERYONE agrees on is preformed!

 

[Phil K]

Hello fellow Homecinema friends,

this is my first posting here, posted from a Kraut over in "Old Europe" Anyway, back on topic...

I have just upgraded my Region 2 Universal DVDs to the full bitrate DTS Region 1 discs featuring 1509kbps where available.
A quick check with one of my favorite fantasy movies "Dragonheart" offers a dramatic change in the DTS mix over the Dolby Digital. The Dolby track sounds boomy whereas the DTS track has LFE effects at very different times and they sound more deep, dry and "fast". Check out the first encounter of Bowen and Draco where Draco tries to hit Bowen with his tail and spits balls of fire.

The same I experienced on the Criterion "The Rock" disc. At first I preferred the Dolby track for its heavier bass in some scenes. However I hate the use of LFE on gunshots, it sounds just so unreal (Best gunfire sound can be found in "Heat" of course). Switching to the DTS track seemed to lack of LFE but then at the right places it kicks in very low and fast. I actually prefer the DTS track now.

So I guess there were different mixes used on these two discs? Can anyone confirm my experiences?

Of course I matched the volume with a sound level meter to be sure these are not effects of a +4db louder DTS mix.

btw many discs here in Germany feature a german DTS track. The last one I checked (Tomb Raider 1) was overcooked in the LFE badly. However I don't care for dubbed soundtracks anyway and prefer not to listen to PAL spedup soundtracks

I have to check the T3 DTS/Dolby tracks of the Region 3 disc on weekend. I will keep you informed.

Greetings from Germany,
Phil

PS: I had the THX mode activated when checking these titles.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Personal:

Welcome Phil,

Your English, is sure a heck of a lot better than my German!

By the way, not to start another fight or anything.
I find German CD's too be of the finest audio quality on the planet!
Of coarse a Japanese pressed disc, alway's has something to offer over it's US counterpart.
However, consistently the German, especially the old W.G. for me, shine to the point I don't miss vinyl as much.
Spent $400US on EBay in two month's, just buying German CD's. Half of which were Jimi Hendrix, my favorite artist, W.G. Polydor's.
In the day, German vinyl was my fave as well!
Of coarse, all this should be in the music forum.
Just wanted to make a connection & say hi!
E.

 

[Eric F]

I think SDDS is better.

 

[Lewis Besze]

And, DD did the encoding themselves behind OPEN doors!

Dolby never did any of the encoding themselves for anyone at no time period!

 

[Kevin M]

Yes, as far as I am aware Dolby made their equipment available for rent or purchase from the start. They only provide "consultants" if they are requested.

Again, as far as I am aware.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

All of this bickering will be pointless if AOD gives us multichannel, high resolution PCM.

I would hope everyone would try to voice their approval for a move such as this.

Lossy compression?? We don' need no stinkin' lossy compression!!

Dan

 

[DaViD Boulet]