dealing with car salesmen (1 Viewer)

[Ryan Wright]

As for the internet, these sites leave out numerous details that are on actual manufacturer's invoices, doc fees, regional ad assn fees, and so forth. If you want the complete picture, ask your friendly sales rep to show you an invoice. I'll be only so happy to do so.

Why are customers paying fees for regional ads? No, really, I want to know. Because I damn sure wouldn't buy a $25,000 car if they said, "Oh, by the way: There's a $500 ad fee and a $300 doc(umentation?) fee, so the car is really going to cost you $25,800."

My personal opinion? These little "fees" are BS. Maybe the dealership adds them, maybe the manufacturer does, but either way, I'm not paying them. If that means I buy a Nissan instead of a Pontiac, for instance, so be it. Other than a destination fee, the price of a car should be relatively fixed throughout the entire country.

 

[Philip_G]

My personal opinion? These little "fees" are BS. Maybe the dealership adds them, maybe the manufacturer does, but either way, I'm not paying them.

I agree. On motorcycles usually there's the price, plus destination fees, and sometimes they throw in a setup/prep fee. I don't mind paying destination (like 300$) but i don't pay set up, it's BS. Most bikes come crated, all the mech. does is bolt on the mirrors and clip ons, maybe dump in some oil and gas, and that's it.
The rest are all costs of doing business and not my problem.

 

[Luc]

Peter, don't be insulted.
Let's face it, you hold a position that many who have to face you don't like, much like a lawyer. Your job is to milk as much money as you can out of your customers right? If your answer is no, then you shouldn't be in the field. If your answer is yes, you're doing your job. It's a no win situation.
Instead of being mad at us, how about offering us advices from a customer perspective since you know the inside experience and information. Be honest of course. We're not the one you'll be selling cars to so no loss for you .
Give us tips on how low compared to the MSRP price a dealer will be willing to go. Do you really have to consult the manager on everything? Issues that are bought up here. Can you address some of them? What's your goal as a sale person? What percent above the MSRP price on an average are your sales, ect. So many questions and you're in the inside so you can help us. Thanks.

 

[Ted Lee]

as already stated, use the websites provided (the edmunds article is very helpful) and do your research. another thing i cannot strive enough is:
BE WILLING TO WALK AWAY - there will always be another deal down the line.
peter - i too would be interested if you're willing to respond to questions. i understand that you are on commision and you have to put food on the table like the rest of us...i was in commision sales for a while and i know it's tough.
i hope people here don't start thrashing you.
anyway, my question is how do you respond when people come in and say, "i'll give you $500.00 over invoice." i keep wanting to go that route. i know i'll have to finance my car so i'm not sure how to add that to the mix. i suppose the best thing to do is come in pre-approved? then offer a "cash payment" X dollars above invoice?
anyway, hope to hear from the inside man...

 

[Shawn C]

regional ad assn fees

You're kidding, right?

 

[Keith Mickunas]

I've tried the set price deal once, and it worked for me. I bought a Camaro from Don Kahan Chevrolet in KC once and got a good price for it. Cable-Dahmer never got closer than a grand to their price. It was over invoice, which I don't mind too much, and I didn't have to fight with them. Also, they went out of their way to get the car I wanted and didn't push me towards what they had on the lot. Even after I said I wasn't buying the ones they had, they still offered to let me take one home for the weekend. So not all those deals are bad.

I also think some of the comments here are overly harsh. However when you are giving generic info in this area, you have to be negative. There's too much of a chance of getting screwed by the seedy salespeople. My VW salesman offered my car at $250 over invoice, without me ever mentioning money. If he didn't make that offer I was willing to go to $1400 over invoice based on Edmunds TMV. He wasn't pushy, he knew when I first met him my purchase was a month or two off, and he only called me to tell me about specials and that they had new ones arrive. I only had to bicker over my trade, and that eventually got settled close enough to what I wanted. And I examined all the numbers closely with their 2.9% financing and everything. I may have paid a couple of those questionable fees, amounting to maybe $150, but considering the rest of the deal I don't care.

On the flip side, another VW dealer wanted my friend to pay $300 for etching the VIN on the windows. So you can't judge only by brand.

BTW, the VW salesman I worked with was in fleet sales, and I've heard that they are good to deal with. So ask for the fleet sales manager as they may not screw around as much.

 

[Philip_G]

On the flip side, another VW dealer wanted my friend to pay $300 for etching the VIN on the windows

my nissan dealer tried that too. Only it wasn't the VIN it was some 800 number and a serial number of some type. I declined. What do you know, the car is already etched. I'm sure they all are.

 

[Shawn C]

Window etching, hahah..

They will try anything to squeeze a buck out of you, won't they.

"You need special wax! We can coat your car with this special stuff....blah blah"

"You need scotchguard protection!"

"You need a dash cover! We can get you....."

I've even been to dealerships that hand you off to an entirely different person to shows you a catalog of totally worthless shit to try and sell you.

The thing I HATE the most is the stupid security-chip security system they install on the car the instant the car rolls off of the truck. This is the most asinine thing I have ever seen. There is a little 'module' on the bottom of the steering column where you need to plug a 'chip' into in order to start the car. They always want $500.00 for this piece of shit.

The funniest part is, all of the 'chips' are all the same! You can grab any 'chip' and use it in any 'module'.

So, on my last car, I told the dude I didn't want the security system. He said ok, took $500.00 off of the price and just handed me a 'chip' to leave in 'permanently'.

 

[Leila Dougan]

Shawn, you're absolutely right about the security device. However, I will tell you that the money I saved on my insurance premiums more than made up for the $500 (I don't remember the exact figure) I spent to have it on my car in the first place. My car is not even 5 years old and its already payed itself back.

 

[Bill Slack]

If if the VIN isn't etched in, it costs a whopping $10-$15 to have it done. And most insurance agents will do it for you for free!

The dealer may be able to trick people into think it's a good deal since it can save up to 15% on comprehensive insurance.

Peter:

I don't think anyone is trying to insult you, or insuate all car dealers are slime. But, let's face it... Aren't most of them? I've gone car shopping a number of times, and usually the folks are a real hassle to deal with. Certainly not all of them. Even the ones I ended up liking were a bit pushy for my tastes, but that's what is required of the job, which I understand.

I bought a used Accord from a higher-end dealership (VW, Audi, Saab, Volvo and Porsche) once, and had a great experience. The car was going to be late for delivery, and I was going on a trip. With a little work on my part, I got them to drive the car over to the Honda dealership and have the one small problem fixed. I picked the car up about 1.5hrs after the dealership closed. The salesman was a nice guy, and knows how to keep his customers happy. I can't say that's the norm...

 

[Ryan Wright]

The thing I HATE the most is the stupid security-chip security system they install on the car the instant the car rolls off of the truck.

Shawn - I just posted about this in another thread here:
I've never heard of this, but a friend of mine bought a new truck some 8 years ago. They tried to sell him a "security system" for $300. Turns out, the system is already installed! There's a little "key" that plugs in underneath the dash. All it does is connect certain wires together. When they're disconnected ("key" removed), the car won't start.
So they've got a "key" in it, but the handle has been removed so you can't get it out. For $300, you get the same key with a little plastic handle on it. So my buddy gets a pair of tweezers, grabs ahold of the key and yanks it out. He drills a tiny hole in it, then attaches a piece of string so he can pull it out whenever he feels like it. Now remember that he owns this truck. It's not leased, or rented, he bought the thing. So he takes it into the dealership one day for service and they freaked out on him. Threatened him, told him he was stealing from them by not paying for the alarm, and took his modified key away. Now just who is stealing from who here?
Then they tried to force him to pay the $300 for the "security system" (or rather the plastic key that comes with it). He refused. They told him he couldn't have his truck back until he paid for it. He said "Fine, I'm going to call 911 on that pay phone over there, see you in a minute." They backed down.
Of course, they had to put another "unremovable" key in there in order to start the truck, but they threatened him again, saying if he pulls it out and modifies it that they will sue him. I believe his last words to them were "Fuck off." First thing he did when he got home was pull the new key out, drill a hole in it, and attach another string.

 

[Jeremy Illingworth]

I find some of the negative characterizations being made here to be rather offensive--and I consider myself very hard to insult

Peter: I know what you mean, everybody thinks all dry cleaners (that's what I do) are out to intentionally ruin their garments and rip them off.


Thanks for the advice and links everyone. I'm sure not all salesmen are liars, but his one sure was. She had already gone to the Saturn dealer without me and had only good things to say about them.

Next week we're going to start to intensify the search at other dealers. She doesn't know exactly what she wants yet, which I know isn't helping. She told me that if I hadn't come with her she probably would have taken the Tracker home upon her approval, so I guess his techinque sells cars. At least we don't have to haggle over trade in; she doesn't have a car.

Please keep the advice coming because I'll never buy a new car but I really want to keep her from getting screwed.

jeremy

And of course he tried to stick her for the full sticker price.

 

[Eric Kahn]

when I bought my VW New Beetle TDI last Aug, I think I paid $29.95 in doc fees, since I know that a title in OH cost $5.50 and it cost 10 or 15 bucks in OH to register the lean on the car with the state, I did not say anything
but about 6 years ago I bought a car for five dollars at one of those "special" sales, price slasher or somthing, I ended up paying $290 in fees on my 5 dollar car (69 Coupe deville, wish I still had it) what really irked me was the fees were broken down and 2 did not apply $75 for plate transfer (plates in KY stay with car, I live in OH) I did not get the plate since I was out of state, and $99 to transfer title, they did not transfer it, they signed the back and mailed it to me, I had to go pay OH $5.50 to transfer it.
the first time I bought a new car, several dealers lost out on the sale by not listening to me when I first started talking to them about it, the first words out of my mouth were that I had no cosigners for the loan and that I was underneath my tradein, the dealers that lost the sales both asked for cosigners towards the end of the deal process and that ended the whole thing, the third dealer listened to me, gave me the price I asked for on the 90 sundace I bought, screwed me on my trade in ( I exspected that, did not say a thing, it was a piece of crap used cop car) and everyone was happy because the salesman took time to listen to me, I even got a decent for the times rate on a straight bank loan on it through the dealer ( I know he made a referal fee on the loan, but I could not have gotten a better rate at the time on my own)

 

[Philip Hamm]

Peter McM wrote:

I am a car salesman.

Not to stray off topic into the "Software" section too much, but have you seen the movie "Suckers"? It is absolutely HILARIOUS with over-the-top car salesmen. A good friend of mine who's the GM of a local car dealership lent it to me and it's fricking funny as crap. HIGHLY recommended. The DVD has good extras, too. The actors' commentary sucks, but the director/producer one is great and the "early films" by the director include a funny super-8 movie he made as a child. It's a riot.

Actually I'd highly recommend the movie to anyone. It's a real funny low budget independant comedy, worth a look.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Please keep the advice coming because I'll never buy a new car but I really want to keep her from getting screwed.

Jeremy, seriously, read the article about how to buy a car at www.edmunds.com - it is the most valuable information you'll ever get.

 

[Peter McM]

Of course I try to sell a car for as much as I can. Depending on the car, I can easily hold out for sticker. When the Subaru WRX came out, we were the only dealership around who wasn't charging over MSRP. The higher gas prices go, the less flexible we are on the TDI VWs.

My experience is, it's usually the customer that lies to the salesman:

"You cometitor across town offered to sell me this same car for this price."

I respond, "I'm sorry, but I just can't take that much money off this car."

When they come back with the common, "How close can you get?", I know they're BSing me, because it shouldn't make any difference how close. They should be on their way out the door.

I shouldn't even grace assinine questions like "which invoice...the one you made up?" and "You're kidding, right?" when it comes to certain things the maker charges. I'll admit I can't explain what some manufacturer fees actually are (I can explain dealer doc and tire tax, and while some dealers set it a bit high, we don't.), but we have only one invoice for each car--the one that VW or Mazda or Subaru sends.

Do I really have to check with my manager? You Bet!!! He has the final word on each and every deal.


The most common bone of contention is trade-in value. Kellys Blue Book is the worst! It works on a fixed rate of depreciation for each make/model of car. Some cars just lose value faster than others. Fair value is the NADA book, which is updated weekly to reflect what each has fetched at auction--the true guage of trade-in value. These values fluctuate as badly as the stock market, based on factors like gas prices and even the time of year (this is an especially bad time to be looking to get KBB for that thirsty SUV). And there's no one at these internet sites constantly updating this information.

 

[Josh Lowe]

regional ad assn fees, and so forth.

Hahaha.

Thanks, I needed that after a long day!

 

[Philip_G]

I shouldn't even grace assinine questions like "which invoice...the one you made up?"

LoL why? because it's the truth? I know for a fact some dealers do just that.

 

[Mike Huay]

Would you tear up a hundred dollar bill and throw it away?
How about one, two, or ever five thousand dollars? Think you can't possibly get ripped five grand on a 20K car? How about those cheap cars, like Kia and Suzuki - can't loose money there, right? You can send your money to me by paypal if you feel the need to waste it. I worked as a car salesman once...

For each and every area of lack of knowledge, lack of decision making power and lack of will power you take with you into the dealership YOU WILL LOOSE MONEY, YOU WILL GET RIPPED OFF, YOU MAY END UP WITH A CAR YOU "DIDN'T WANT" AND YOU WILL PAY TOO MUCH. Having your "guard up" will not help, it will hurt. Your guard (defined as definsiveness without backing) will soon give way to "well I really do like this one..."

Only this will work - Its plain and simple:

"Know what you want and what you are willing to pay (including finance rates) and stick to that no matter what!"
"Know what you want and what you are willing to pay (including finance rates) and stick to that no matter what!"

If you are at the point where you dont know what car you want, then just go to several dealers and drive them. They will want you name and number and that cant be avoided, giving fake numbers is not a bad idea if you dont want calls later. Dont feel bad at this stage about doing that. Some will want a licence (for your adress, not for you drivers status) After the test drive, leave. Just walk. Whatever information they got is all they get. No more, no credit checks at this point. After finding the car you like, perhaps through several test drives, then research on the net. Figure out what colors, options, packages etc. you must have, are willing to buy, don't want, etc. Dont waste money on a car that is not exactly within your range of accepted features. Then find out the price of the invoice, include freight, and invoice of dealer installed options. Go a step further and research the dealer incentives THIS IS KEY! They will hide these from you. If there is "cash back" subtract this from the price you decided on. They will tell you ANYTHING. You have to find out for yourself.

Finally after researching everything, you should have model in mind "xxxxxxx V6 with the lux pkg, red or white, and the upgraded sound is ok, but not reqd, and I definantly dont want the nav sys or any other junk."

Then check Edmunds, see the value, and shoot for less than that. If you live in a big city and you are buying a mass market car and edmunds says its worth $100 over invoice, remember that half are paying under that figure. only you can decide what its worth to you, but it certainly helps to find out "wow lots of people got their accord for under invoice and then applied the cash back on top of that."

Then check your credit online. You can now get your score from all the credit bureaus! Its a few dollars to know where you stand. Find out the best rates AND as many have said here, get pre approved if you are not sure. Say the car dealers can go as low as 5% unsubsidized on a 60 month loan of invoice amout with nothing down. Will they come out and tell you? NO! They won't. They simply tell you the highest they think you will take. Same as the price! Had a loan before, not in over your head, always paid on time? Then demand the best market rate OR the subsidised manufacturers rate if available (0%, 1.9%, etc.) Know in advance what the payment will be at market interest rates for the length of time you want financed with your down payment if any. Dont go to the dealer and ask "I just want to know what the payments would be on this." Its stupid --- on your part. It screams out "rip me off!!!"

Now you are ready. The car you want costs 23000. The invoice is 20000. There is a thousand cash back. The car is by no means rare, and you decide 50 bucks is over all what you will pay. IF the salesman says he is only making 50 or 100 dollars for all this hard work its not your problem he chose this job. Be ready for the song and dance about how they will starve and they are not making any money. You know this is crap. You know about holdback.) So thats 19050 plus tax and tag (NOTE - NO MORE FEES) You are ready for any answers about "we have to charge the 400 prep and 250 doc."

You then can proceed to find the car and deal with the idiotic excuses. ARMED With knowledge, knowing you will not get ripped off and knowing when they lie. Dont be afraid to stand up for your hard earned money. Know those paperwork fees? CRAP! Thats like the grocery store telling you your groceries are $100 and you now have to pay a $5 cashier fee. Its bullshit! If they cant remove the $250 from the form, then tell them to lower the car price by $250. you are now at 18800 + tax. You will finance with nothing down, you live in New Hampshire where there is no sales tax and you pay tags later. So thats back to 19050.00 You expect 5.9% based on your fairly good and established credit. Gee, thats 367.40 for 60 months. Why did they say I could get 5.9 but the payment would be 424.38 x 60? Duhh.

If you live in an area where dealers won't deal go elsewhere. e.g., anyone who lives in Birmingham who values their money goes to Atlanta for an across the board savings of thousands per car. Birmingham dealers all whine the same crap about limited supply and bla bla bla and we have to charge sticker and you need this 400 dollar wax job... Sounds like your town? Is it worth 2 K to drive 2 hours?

And finally, if you are leasing, learn about it first. Dealers push leasing because they make more money. People just dont understand leasing for the most part. they just see wow that payment looks cheap... learn about money factor, residuals, cap cost, down payment, taxes, etc. It can be done to meet your needs, but know exactly how the payment is calculated.

It does not matter whether you do this all in person or by emailing the dealer, though emailing will reach an "internet" sales person, who is more used to dealing with assholes like you, who dare not be ripped off.

 

[Marshall Alsup]

Mike, that was good stuff. But what did you mean by this:

You will finance with nothing down, you live in New Hampshire where there is no sales tax and you pay tags later. So thats back to 19050.00 You expect 5.9% based on your fairly good and established credit. Gee, thats 367.40 for 60 months. Why did they say I could get 5.9 but the payment would be 424.38 x 60? Duhh

I've never bought a new car before so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying if the payments come out to more than what you figured ($367) then you getting jacked because somebody is intentionally ripping you off. If that is what you mean, would a dealer actually quote you a cost/interest rate and then work it up for something more? Isn't this outright fraud?
Man, you guys make me afraid to buy a car, and at the same time excited to bully a car salesmen
-Marshall