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Nelson Au

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I have the Masters of Cinema blu ray of The Flight of the Phoenix. I did a direct A-B comparison to the previous 20th Century Fox DVD. I queued up both films and played them and flipped back and forth between the two. in looking at both, the source appears to be the same used on the old DVD and the MoC blu ray. The only difference I saw in the image was the Blu ray is sharper. Color grading is the same.

So of course I can’t say what the correct color grading is supposed to be. But I’d be inclined to believe that Criterion is more accurate. The old source used to make the DVD may not have been corrected at the time? From that screen cap above, it looks like the old yellowed layer of varnish was cleaned off and we see the true colors. :)
 

sultan of cinema

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I also have the DVD, looked at it recently and the color on that disc (DVD) looks correct to me as when I saw it when released. I ordered the Criterion but the images I'm seeing posted are indeed "cooler" and don't reflect the bright hot sunshine as seen theatrically. Your Masters of Cinema looks like my DVD.
 

Ryan Barrett

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This is disappointing to say the least - given Disney's ownership over FOX, I would be saddened if this is indeed the last stop for this picture (at least in physical media). Criterion really seems to be missing the mark as of late - take a look at the errors authored into their 4K releases, for example. When a film of this magnitude goes through the final "OK" in the QA process, who gives final approval over the look of the film and what are they measuring against?

In this case, it appears that the "cool" color tones are just one of the objections....why the cropping of the frame?
 

darkrock17

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This is disappointing to say the least - given Disney's ownership over FOX, I would be saddened if this is indeed the last stop for this picture (at least in physical media). Criterion really seems to be missing the mark as of late - take a look at the errors authored into their 4K releases, for example. When a film of this magnitude goes through the final "OK" in the QA process, who gives final approval over the look of the film and what are they measuring against?

In this case, it appears that the "cool" color tones are just one of the objections....why the cropping of the frame?

Not the first time Criterion's cropped a film, they did it to Some Like It Hot. Not always noticeable, but this shot from the film is. Jack's line about Marylin being Jello on springs doesn't work if you can't see her whole legs from behind.

Top is MGM
Bottom is Criterion

1645475543443.png


1645475561901.png
 

titch

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Except Nightmare Alley WAS transfered in 4k...which was complete and total overkill since the elements used were at least three generations removed from the neg.

As for the case of the color here, the increasingly insufferable Dr. Atanasov elected not to repost Criterion's blub on the transfer on that other site so I'm not sure who is to "blame" for the new color palette if any.
He is not a film or restoration expert. He is a bassoon player. He has just regurgitated all that StudioCanal rubbish about Le Cercle Rouge for the Criterion release. I ignore all his reviews now.
 

Douglas R

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Criterion is zoomed in and the colors don't look right.

OK you can all flame me now.

Masters of Cinema
View attachment 129105

Criterion
View attachment 129106

Masters of Cinema
View attachment 129109

Criterion
View attachment 129110
I saw the film on first release. I certainly can't claim to know what it looked like then but I do know which one I prefer. Additionally the facial color on the Masters of Cinema looks very much more typical from US films of that period which I do remember, rather than the colder look.
 

Edwin-S

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How can anyone determine if the colour in the MoC version is correct based on theatrical viewings from decades ago?

It is not like cinemas in the past would have met some standardized quality of presentation any more than they do now. PQ and color in a cinema could be affected by any number of factors.

Also, memory has been proven to be a decidedly inaccurate way to determine the accuracy of an event.
 

Stephen_J_H

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He is not a film or restoration expert. He is a bassoon player. He has just regurgitated all that StudioCanal rubbish about Le Cercle Rouge for the Criterion release. I ignore all his reviews now.
Just read that Le Cercle Rouge review. What a steaming pile of pseudoauthoritative twaddle!
 

lark144

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I saw the film on first release. I certainly can't claim to know what it looked like then but I do know which one I prefer. Additionally the facial color on the Masters of Cinema looks very much more typical from US films of that period which I do remember, rather than the colder look.
And yet, I saw the film when it opened as well, in the US, and the look of the Criterion is much closer to what I remember. It definitely did not have a golden glow, but was cooler, which is generally the look Aldrich went for in his color films from the 1960's. Of course, the prints in the UK and US could be quite different in terms of color. For that matter, DeLuxe prints could vary in terms of color temp and graininess from theater to theater. But I saw "Flight of the Phoenix" first run in NYC, and looking at the Criterion, it's similar. The colors were neutral, with whites very pure and predominating. The desert sands weren't yellow, but pale. Yes, we all remember things differently. But for me, the coolness of the Criterion is close to what I first saw.

btw, yes, DeLuxe prints of the 1960's did generally look like the MOC. But not the print I saw of "Flight of the Phoneix". It was much cooler in terms of color temp.
 

RolandL

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I saw the film on first release. I certainly can't claim to know what it looked like then but I do know which one I prefer. Additionally the facial color on the Masters of Cinema looks very much more typical from US films of that period which I do remember, rather than the colder look.

When making the movie, I'm sure they decided to go for a "colder look" since it takes place in the hot desert sun.
 

haineshisway

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This is not brain surgery, kids. The MOC Blu-ray and the Fox DVD were from an OLDER transfer, probably twelve to fifteen YEARS old. The Criterion is NEW. I hate screen caps, but if the usual suspects are saying they're accurate, all one need do is look at the color red. In the old transfer the color red is closer to orange. In the new transfer the color red is red as it should be. That might give you a tiny hint as to which is correct.

As to framing, we have the usual assumptions that the OLD transfer was somehow correct.
 

haineshisway

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I’ll withhold judgment on color until after I’ve seen the disc. I can’t speak to anyone else’s experience but what I see on a screenshot on my phone usually doesn’t match how it looks in motion on my projector, and how it looks on the projector is the thing that counts with me.
Now just wait a darned minute. You actually want to SEE the disc? That, my friend, is radical thinking. Are you a Bolshevik?
 

RolandL

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This is not brain surgery, kids. The MOC Blu-ray and the Fox DVD were from an OLDER transfer, probably twelve to fifteen YEARS old. The Criterion is NEW. I hate screen caps, but if the usual suspects are saying they're accurate, all one need do is look at the color red. In the old transfer the color red is closer to orange. In the new transfer the color red is red as it should be. That might give you a tiny hint as to which is correct.

Does it look like orange or red?

1o.jpg

1645641892124.png


Or, does it look like red?

1red.jpg
 

haineshisway

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Oh, how selective of you - in comparison to the Criterion in the caps you posted, which I believe came from the DVD Beaver site and therefore should be discounted immediately it looks more orange. The End. As James Mason said to Cary Grant: "Games? Must we?" Get the disc, watch it, and report back.
 

RolandL

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Oh, how selective of you - in comparison to the Criterion in the caps you posted, which I believe came from the DVD Beaver site and therefore should be discounted immediately it looks more orange. The End. As James Mason said to Cary Grant: "Games? Must we?" Get the disc, watch it, and report back.

Review

"Presented in its original aspect ratio of 1.85:1, encoded with MPEG-4 AVC and granted a 1080p transfer, Flight of the Phoenix arrives on Blu-ray courtesy of Criterion.

The release is sourced from a recent 2K master, which isn't the same master British label Eureka Entertainment used to produce this Region-B release in 2016. (For what it's worth, this master is even older, and was used for a couple of different domestic and international DVD releases).

Unfortunately, this recent 2K master is quite disappointing. Why? Because it is graded in a way that gives the entire film a brand new, completely unnatural color temperature, and as a result alters its identity. Indeed, because of the awkward color values virtually all of the desert footage looks like it takes place during a very nice and cool autumn, rather than during a hot summer with a dangerously unforgiving sun. Many of the yellows, browns, and blues are dramatically desaturated in favor of cool whites and very pale greens that never give the desert yellows a chance to make their presence felt. Needless to say, the damaged by the sun faces, the hot sands, and even the scorching sun can look very, very strange with the current color settings."
 

Stephen_J_H

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Oh, how selective of you - in comparison to the Criterion in the caps you posted, which I believe came from the DVD Beaver site and therefore should be discounted immediately it looks more orange. The End. As James Mason said to Cary Grant: "Games? Must we?" Get the disc, watch it, and report back.

Review

"Presented in its original aspect ratio of 1.85:1, encoded with MPEG-4 AVC and granted a 1080p transfer, Flight of the Phoenix arrives on Blu-ray courtesy of Criterion.

The release is sourced from a recent 2K master, which isn't the same master British label Eureka Entertainment used to produce this Region-B release in 2016. (For what it's worth, this master is even older, and was used for a couple of different domestic and international DVD releases).

Unfortunately, this recent 2K master is quite disappointing. Why? Because it is graded in a way that gives the entire film a brand new, completely unnatural color temperature, and as a result alters its identity. Indeed, because of the awkward color values virtually all of the desert footage looks like it takes place during a very nice and cool autumn, rather than during a hot summer with a dangerously unforgiving sun. Many of the yellows, browns, and blues are dramatically desaturated in favor of cool whites and very pale greens that never give the desert yellows a chance to make their presence felt. Needless to say, the damaged by the sun faces, the hot sands, and even the scorching sun can look very, very strange with the current color settings."
Keep in mind that, much like Glenn Erickson [DVD Savant], Gary has never disclosed whether or not or how his equipment is calibrated. His reviews do provide some good information, but only some, and his captures are notoriously suspect in terms of colour grading.
 

Edwin-S

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How does anyone determine if either screen cap is accurate as far as colour goes when most of us are looking at them with uncalibrated phone screens and/or computer monitors?
 

Worth

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How does anyone determine if either screen cap is accurate as far as colour goes when most of us are looking at them with uncalibrated phone screens and/or computer monitors?
Accurate to what? Unless you have a low-fade 35mm reference print handy, it's all conjecture.
 

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