Press Release Criterion Press Release: The Flight of the Phoenix (1965) (Blu-ray) (1 Viewer)

[Ryan Barrett]

Or is it possible that the color scheme and framing on this Criterion release is just fine.

Sure - could be, but my question remains the same - what's the point of reference?

 

[Robert Crawford]

Sure - could be, but my question remains the same - what's the point of reference?

That's a question for Criterion to answer.

 

[Ryan Barrett]

That's a question for Criterion to answer.

Yes. We agree.

 

[RolandL]

Ha, yup, that's about it, & the person making that decision probably wasn't even alive when the film originally did the rounds at the cinema. I prefer the warmer look (after all it is set in the desert) & other people here prefer it cooler, but that's just personal preference (& there's nothing wrong with the reds in the old transfer). Just because it's a new transfer doesn't make it right (& vice versa). I don't own it (I've just seen the film too many times, including on its original release), but if I did want it, it would have to be the older transfer.

This review mentions that the Criterion disc comes from an old master. I'm not sure what DVD's he is referring to.

"The release is sourced from a recent 2K master, which isn't the same master British label Eureka Entertainment used to produce this Region-B release in 2016. (For what it's worth, this master is even older, and was used for a couple of different domestic and international DVD releases). "

 

[smithbrad]

I prefer the warmer look (after all it is set in the desert)

Just an observation. I've seen a few people across forums reference this now about warm colors and desert heat, which got me to thinking. The only time I recall seeing such a golden hue is as the sun is setting in the late afternoon not mid-day or close to it. Usually mid-day when it is hottest it seems like everything tends toward bright white. I also looked up sand colors in the Sahara and apparently it can be anywhere from whites to golden yellows to browns. While I can see where the golden hue might be used to sell the concept of the desert heat, the more I have reflected on it the more I think the whites may be more accurate. And the way the golden hue is spread across everything makes me think it was filtered to be that way. Now as to what the original intent was, I have no reference to compare. In the end, I don't have a strong preference, once the movie starts I'm good to go with either one.

 

[smithbrad]

This review mentions that the Criterion disc comes from an old master. I'm not sure what DVD's he is referring to.

"The release is sourced from a recent 2K master, which isn't the same master British label Eureka Entertainment used to produce this Region-B release in 2016. (For what it's worth, this master is even older, and was used for a couple of different domestic and international DVD releases). "

I think you are misreading it. When they refer to "this master is even older" they are referring to the Eureka blu-ray and the older Fox DVD release. It probably should have been stated as "that master..."

 

[jayembee]

To paraphrase the late, great Frank Zappa, "Shut up and play your bassoon."

As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a bassoon..."

 

[PMF]

As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a bassoon..."

Wasn’t that a quote from The Fudd of the Phoenix?

 

[Alan Tully]

Just an observation. I've seen a few people across forums reference this now about warm colors and desert heat, which got me to thinking. The only time I recall seeing such a golden hue is as the sun is setting in the late afternoon not mid-day or close to it. Usually mid-day when it is hottest it seems like everything tends toward bright white. I also looked up sand colors in the Sahara and apparently it can be anywhere from whites to golden yellows to browns. While I can see where the golden hue might be used to sell the concept of the desert heat, the more I have reflected on it the more I think the whites may be more accurate. And the way the golden hue is spread across everything makes me think it was filtered to be that way. Now as to what the original intent was, I have no reference to compare. In the end, I don't have a strong preference, once the movie starts I'm good to go with either one.

Yes, but there's no golden hue in the older transfer, & it doesn't even look over-warm to me, it just looks normal, whereas the new transfer (which isn't that new, Germany have been selling it for a couple of years, & it's only 10 euros & multi-region) looks too cool, but it's going to look fine as you watch it, as your eyes (brain) gets used to it.

 

[sultan of cinema]

My DVD and Original screening at the Wayne Theater upon first release resemble perfectly what the film should look like. And when I look at Masters of Cinema and my DVD, this is the correct. Criterion hasn't exactly had a perfect record this past several months and again as I stated in a previous thread, Criterion changed the color on La Piscine. The warmth of the original film is now "gold/ yellow". I'm glad I kept the French Blu ray which again is correct. Criterion did with Flight Of The Phoenix what Kino has presented us with for the last rendition of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. It's cool and colder looking. I have seen The Good, the Bad and The Ugly over 80 times theatrically since 1967 and continue looking at personal 35 Tech prints of the film to this day. The only Blu-ray that got The Good, The Bad and The Ugly correct was the Italian release years ago which is region locked, unavailable and out of print.

 

[smithbrad]

Yes, but there's no golden hue in the older transfer, & it doesn't even look over-warm to me, it just looks normal, whereas the new transfer (which isn't that new, Germany have been selling it for a couple of years, & it's only 10 euros & multi-region) looks too cool, but it's going to look fine as you watch it, as your eyes (brain) gets used to it.

You see natural and overly cool, while I see natural and overly warm. Obviously, there are stark differences between the two images and we each are fixated on different things. For me, I can't resolve the fact that there are no true whites in the earlier releases when comparing across images. For you it must be something different. In any case, as I referenced before, what appear as stark differences across images does not always carry over in the same way when watching the movies.

When it comes to comparing screen captures, some use them to the point of determining what to buy and not buy, some see moderate value, while others not only see no value but the potential to cause more harm then good. Especially, given all the variability involved. It's not even just about color grading. I've seen similar discussion regrading DNR vs. sharpening. The fact is, there appears to be a need to pick a reference and judge everything against it when there isn't enough information to support what is and isn't the reference, or if either are reference, or there is any reference available.

I used to be on the moderate side about comparing screen captures, but now I'm definitely on the side of more harm than good. Too much potential for being hyper focused on what too many times amounts to little and removing an ability to just sit back and enjoy a good film. To each their own.

 

[smithbrad]

My DVD and Original screening at the Wayne Theater upon first release resemble perfectly what the film should look like. And when I look at Masters of Cinema and my DVD, this is the correct. Criterion hasn't exactly had a perfect record this past several months and again as I stated in a previous thread, Criterion changed the color on La Piscine. The warmth of the original film is now "gold/ yellow". I'm glad I kept the French Blu ray which again is correct. Criterion did with Flight Of The Phoenix what Kino has presented us with for the last rendition of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. It's cool and colder looking. I have seen The Good, the Bad and The Ugly over 80 times theatrically since 1967 and continue looking at personal 35 Tech prints of the film to this day. The only Blu-ray that got The Good, The Bad and The Ugly correct was the Italian release years ago which is region locked, unavailable and out of print.

Yes, you posted this several times now. I'm guessing most aren't buying into a 50+ year old memory as reference material.

 

[Alan Tully]

Yes, you posted this several times now. I'm guessing most aren't buying into a 50+ year old memory as reference material.

That was my point earlier, there is no reference material. You have to take what they give you, but that doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it. Most of these cooler (or blue) transfers did come from Fox, & now that Fox physical releases are drying up (Disney), these arguments will probably become thin on the ground (but I'm sure we'll find other things to disagree about).

 

[sultan of cinema]

Hey Bill, it is interesting that the Manager of the Wayne theater (one of the many theaters of my youth) was a long time friend of mine throughout the 60's, 70's and 80's and had your same exact name. Great guy, many movie memories and always wondered if you were related.

 

[Alan Tully]

Hey Bill, it is interesting that the Manager of the Wayne theater (one of the many theaters of my youth) was a long time friend of mine throughout the 60's, 70's and 80's and had your same exact name. Great guy, many movie memories and always wondered if you were related.

Ha, I got that name from the Adventures Of Captain Marvel serial, & I should really change it as he was a really annoying character in it. I don't know why I didn't use my own name Alan Tully, but I can't be bothered to change it now.

 

[sultan of cinema]

Looks like you are in London. Door is always open here in the US my friend!

 

[jayembee]

Yes, you posted this several times now. I'm guessing most aren't buying into a 50+ year old memory as reference material.

I'm sure that there are people with eidetic memories that can perfectly (or close enough) recall things from 50-60 years ago. The trouble with this is two-fold:

(1) Some clearly held memories can be faulty. There are people who claim that they saw, for example, Back to the Future in 1985, and insist that it ended with a "To Be Continued" card, despite Robert Zemeckis stating that that had been done later.

(2) Recalling this information consistently in multiple situations. That is, they remember this for any number of films over the course of many years.

There's also no way of telling whether the theater a film was seen at had projection equipment in tip-top condition and was projecting it as it was meant to be. And people's eyesight changes over time, including color perception. Are they truly remembering what they saw 50 years ago exactly as they saw it, or are those memories in some way altered by what their brains tell them is the way it "should" be because of the changes in how they see color.

I have a terrific memory (less so as the years pass). I saw 2001: A Space Odyssey at the Sack Cinerama theater in Boston in the late spring of 1968...twice. I couldn't possibly say that the current 4K UHD of the film has exactly the same color grading as what I saw on the big screen in 1968. I'm not sure I could say that about something I saw in a theater two months ago.

I believe that people who say they can remember such things believe it themselves. I don't think they're making it up. But for the above reasons, I have a hard time believing it myself.

 

[sultan of cinema]

Many good points made jayembee.
I can recall the theaters I saw the films at, like you, saw Space Odyssey in Cinerama in 1968, remember which UA logos were on what films in the 60's and 70's (strange that Support Your Local Sheriff had a UNITED ARTISTS PRESENTS logo without the Transam), saw Barbarella for the week it was out in 1968 and it was replaced by the musical OLIVER! I have seen On Her Majesty's Secret Service and You Only Live Twice so many times theatrically, along with viewing personal 35 prints that the blurays don't hold a candle to those prints. Waiting in line in the snow for tickets with my girlfriend for Looking For Mr. Goodbar just before Thanksgiving opening night at Totowa Cinema, seeing Paul Verhoeven's Soldier Of Orange when it opened at Cinema 46 with square queue marks! as did Just A Gigilo with David Bowie, seeing the full length magnetic stereo version of The Adventurers in 1970 in Georgia, while we were visiting and the sneek preview of Lucky Lady with the original ending where Burt Reynolds and Gene Hackman were killed! Saw the rough cut of The Living Daylights at the MGM/UA screening room with an interesting gunbarrel not used and special effects insert cards throughout the film, utilizing music from past Bond films. I, like you I bet could on for weeks.

 

[RolandL]

I have a terrific memory (less so as the years pass). I saw 2001: A Space Odyssey at the Sack Cinerama theater in Boston in the late spring of 1968...twice. I couldn't possibly say that the current 4K UHD of the film has exactly the same color grading as what I saw on the big screen in 1968. I'm not sure I could say that about something I saw in a theater two months ago.

 

[RolandL]

Some clearly held memories can be faulty. There are people who claim that they saw, for example, Back to the Future in 1985, and insist that it ended with a "To Be Continued" card, despite Robert Zemeckis stating that that had been done later.

And there are some people that think they saw 2001: a space odyssey in 3-panel Cinerama.