Catfisch Cinema (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

I suspect that's exactly the case, which makes me wonder why they're even building them.

Bragging rights to say they made the most expensive speaker?

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Bragging rights to say they made the most expensive speaker?

I think we were talking about the MadVR Envy, not that $350K speakers, hehheh...

But yeah, no idea who'd buy those, but I'm sure Elon Musk and ARod are potential customers, if they don't already own a pair for each mansion and vacation home, LOL...

_Man_

 

[JohnRice]

Bragging rights to say they made the most expensive speaker?

Actually, Wilson Audio had a special edition speaker a few years ago (before David Wilson passed away) that sold for about $700K a pair. The only way you could audition them was by going to Wilson's home in Provo, Utah.

Also, the Focal Grande Utopia is about $300K a pair. Off the top of my head, I don't know what the Infinity IRS went for when they were available.

 

[DaveF]

Huh? I don't possess the necessary "book learn'in" to comprehend that statement but I think I get your meaning.

Sorry, using jargon from my professional world, forgetting it’s not normal.

I’ve got three main issues on my mind as I think about the projector:

• Cost, plain and simple.
• Performance, relative to cost and each other, but also my willingness to spend hobby time to try and extract more performance from lower cost gear in trade
• FOMO, when I was younger and little money, I was frugal and waited until I could afford better. But now I’m in absolute terms not “younger” and I’m really weighing going halfway right now with a hope of going all the way later…versus going all in now because “later” I’m trending towards having wasted years of enjoyment and approaching too late to fully enjoy it.

My heart says get the JVZ NZ7 (The heart really wants the NZ8 because that’s the true no-compromise device IMO, but that’s so bonkers in price I can’t seriously consider it.)

Rationally, I think the Epson LS12000 or Sony 5000 are the compromise. They’re in my target budget. They look great. HDR isn’t flawless but totally livable, based on online reviews and watching in person a good handful of demos such as scenes from The Batman (darkness) to Ready Player One (really high contrast CGI) to Freddy Mercury (night scenes and daytime scenes of people, no FX). And there’s calibration tweaks and use of an HDFury device (~$500) which some enthusiasts say really enhances the Epson’s HDR performance.

Sony is said to have better motion handling than JVC. In demo’s I can’t discern this, but from playing with my Sony, I have some sense of what that means from its Reality Creation feature. And slightly better contrast than Epson.

Epson is a better choice if I might get a PS6 or XBOX TWO and get back to theater gaming in a year or two. And saving another $1000 is never a bad thing.

This weekend has been a lot of fun and helpful, but didn’t meet my full of hope of clearly showing me what projector to definitely buy.

 

[DaveF]

You'll drive yourself crazy worrying on this level.

• If you need a new mount, just get one.
• I did my own fiber HDMI run shortly after buying the Epson 6050 but you may have additional considerations since your room is a custom job.
• We both need new Pre/Pro's as the AV7702mkii is quite long in the tooth, but it's not a prerequisite for a new 4K projector. Let one decision inform the other.
• If needed, buy the screen you recently convinced me to buy. It's awesome!

Oh sure. This has been an unexpectedly busy and low-level stressful year. And these ”little” things, that will demand real thought and planning and time to accomplish, add to the pile of things I don’t have time for because of everything else.

In the category of F*** It, I’ve also considered hiring a custom installer again and saying: Make It So.

Maybe, just maybe... this is more a factor of your personality than the issues at hand. You're a perfectionist. Takes one to know one but, as @Josh Steinberg alluded in another thread "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

Now when it comes to dropping that 11K we're on the exact same page, which is why the LS12000 remains so tempting.

Yes definitely. I save and save and wait and wait for the product to be what I want and I do not buy until the product is what I want and then I spend big* to get what I want. (*”big” relative to my own thresholds.)

And because I only get a super awesome new 4K projector once or twice in a lifetime, I keep putting it off until it’s “just so” and it turns out projectors are never going to be “just so” so what imperfect compromise do I go with?

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Off the top of my head, I don't know what the Infinity IRS went for when they were available.

I could be mistaken, but think they might've been the 1st to break the 50K "barrier" back in the late-80's or so before being the 1st to reach $100K probably in the mid-90's or something.

Of course, they've transformed into Genesis Tech some (long?) time ago... maybe right around when they reached the $100K mark.

_Man_

 

[DaveF]

In AVS I asked someone for their comparison thoughts having both an LS12000 and NZ7 and spent a lot of time using them both. It’s very interesting.

In short LS12000 is fantastic for normal content and bright “pop” content and better for video games. JVC wins without doubt for The Expanse —ultra black dark content.

And I love the full gamut: Encanto and The Sandman are both the kinds of stuff I love.

Official Epson EH-LS12000 / EH-LS11000 Owner's Thread

Would love to hear your thoughts on HDR between Epson and JVC after that tuning and optimization! IMO, it’s the black floor detail on the JVC that really makes the biggest difference between the two projectors on that < 5% of the darkest of dark material. On that really dark Gemini Man scene I...

www.avsforum.com

 

[John Dirk]

when I was younger and little money, I was frugal and waited until I could afford better. But now I’m in absolute terms not “younger” and I’m really weighing going halfway right now with a hope of going all the way later…versus going all in now because “later” I’m trending towards having wasted years of enjoyment and approaching too late to fully enjoy it.

That's a great point regarding how decisions are filtered through the reality of where you are in your life journey. I'm also inclined less towards extreme compromise at this point in my life and I believe I have a few years on you.

And because I only get a super awesome new 4K projector once or twice in a lifetime, I keep putting it off until it’s “just so” and it turns out projectors are never going to be “just so” so what imperfect compromise do I go with?

That's it in a nutshell for me. I'm usually somewhat of an impulsive buyer when I know I want something and it's performance characteristics are clearly within the specs I seek. It's been really frustrating with this particular decision because none of the projectors that fall within the max of what I would spend seem to capture all of the basic features I'd have to insist on to justify the purchase.

The Sony XW6000ES seems to check all of the boxes but I've never owned a Sony projector and you did a pretty good job of spooking me concerning possible panel degradation issues. Epson has very good warranty support so I'd really like to stick with them, plus their price is obviously much more palatable.

There's a discussion here that asserts the free MadVR software can actually outperform their Envy on a properly equipped HTPC. I know how you feel about hobbies within hobbies but I think I will at least investigate this approach. If I do buy another projector I'd expect it to be my last. The 6050 is already no slouch so the bar is high if I'm going to replace it after only 3 years of ownership. Sadly, out of the box anyway, the LS12000 falls just a bit short so I'd either have to pay Sony/JVC prices or continue waiting.

 

[DaveF]

The Sony XW6000ES seems to check all of the boxes but I've never owned a Sony projector and you did a pretty good job of spooking me concerning possible panel degradation issues. Epson has very good warranty support so I'd really like to stick with them, plus their price is obviously much more palatable.

I’ve not ruled out Sony. But I’m more “eyes open” about them now. And if I buy Sony, I’ll look for an extended warranty option (something I never do). And I’ll definitely measure basic on/off contrast — a simple one hour effort — once or twice a year to be able to jump on a warranty claim if needed.

There's a discussion here that asserts the free MadVR software can actually outperform their Envy on a properly equipped HTPC. I know how you feel about hobbies within hobbies but I think I will at least investigate this approach. If I do buy another projector I'd expect it to be my last. The 6050 is already no slouch so the bar is high if I'm going to replace it after only 3 years of ownership. Sadly, out of the box anyway, the LS12000 falls just a bit short so I'd either have to pay Sony/JVC prices or continue waiting.

If madVR suits your interests and use, by all accounts it’s amazing. But it’s insufficient for me. madVR on HTPC does nothing for my AppleTV and we watch 80% streaming TV and 20% movies.

I could say more. But in short for me, madVR isn’t a solution. I need to get the right projector without assuming madVR can fix any baseline limitations.

 

[DaveF]

There's a discussion here that asserts the free MadVR software can actually outperform their Envy on a properly equipped HTPC. I know how you feel about hobbies within hobbies but I think I will at least investigate this approach. If I do buy another projector I'd expect it to be my last. The 6050 is already no slouch so the bar is high if I'm going to replace it after only 3 years of ownership. Sadly, out of the box anyway, the LS12000 falls just a bit short so I'd either have to pay Sony/JVC prices or continue waiting.

But for you, if you’re interested in the madVR side HTPC hobby, you should do it! That goes back the MadVR Envy guy (who I “know” from forums and isn’t blowing smoke) telling me that doing that on a 6050 would be great. It might give you the couple years you want and reinvigorate your movie enjoyment.

 

[John Dirk]

I’ve not ruled out Sony. But I’m more “eyes open” about them now. And if I buy Sony, I’ll look for an extended warranty option (something I never do). And I’ll definitely measure basic on/off contrast — a simple one hour effort — once or twice a year to be able to jump on a warranty claim if needed.

Well, not to rain on your parade but [as I'm sure you know] extended warranties are usually 3rd party and notoriously difficult to enforce, even with objective failure data. Getting a replacement for on/off contrast degradation [something no one at the 3rd party company likely even understands] would seem a practical impossibility.

On paper anyway, I love everything about the 6000ES [except, of course, the price] but I'd have to feel confident about it's long-term reliability and Sony's support ethics before I could actually purchase one. I also never pay for extended warranties and wouldn't want to start with a purchase of this magnitude. Looking over Sony's terms it appears the customer is responsible for return shipping, even during the Limited Warranty period. I've had two hassle-free warranty replacements from Epson that cost me nothing. In each case they over-nighted a replacement BEFORE I was required to return the suspect unit. From what I can find on the NZ7, JVC offers a similar program but only for the first year. This is perhaps Epson's strongest advantage for me, even over price.

 

[John Dirk]

But for you, if you’re interested in the madVR side HTPC hobby, you should do it! That goes back the MadVR Envy guy (who I “know” from forums and isn’t blowing smoke) telling me that doing that on a 6050 would be great. It might give you the couple years you want and reinvigorate your movie enjoyment.

Being semi-retired, I'm starting to have more spare time than spare money so I do think I'll take a look. Can't hurt.

 

[DaveF]

I’m buying a new projector this year.

I’m watching the car chase scene in The Batman on my Sony. I watched this twice on the Epson and once on the Sony this weekend.

The new projector experience is better in every regard. Contrast. Brightness of the headlamps. Darkness of the cars. I’m sold.

I’ve kinda meh on 4K in general. I hadn’t seen anything that really impressed. I‘ve been more along for the ride, belatedly keeping up with the tech. But now, I’m looking forward to a new projector like I haven’t before!

 

[John Dirk]

I’m buying a new projector this year.

Congrats, Dave! If this announcement had come from anyone else I might consider it vague but not so much in your case.

The new projector experience is better in every regard. Contrast. Brightness of the headlamps. Darkness of the cars. I’m sold.

Coming from a 6 year old Sony, I should definitely be.

I’ve kinda meh on 4K in general. I hadn’t seen anything that really impressed. I‘ve been more along for the ride, belatedly keeping up with the tech. But now, I’m looking forward to a new projector like I haven’t before!

I'm assuming you've settled on the Epson? If so I believe that's a wise overall choice. From what I've read, the 4x pixel shifting is virtually indistinguishable from true 4K at normal seating distances.

 

[DaveF]

Congrats, Dave! If this announcement had come from anyone else I might consider it vague but not so much in your case.

Coming from a 6 year old Sony, I should definitely be.

I'm assuming you've settled on the Epson? If so I believe that's a wise overall choice. From what I've read, the 4x pixel shifting is virtually indistinguishable from true 4K at normal seating distances.

I’m not yet fully settled on choice, but I want to do it this calendar year if possible. And yes I’m leaning to the Epson again. If its native contrasts was double like Sony it would be a done deal.

I’m going to try and find some local enthusiast to give me demos. Probably hit up Sam for another look at his older JVC to peer into the abyss and make sure I don’t need it.

 

[DFurr]

I’ve kinda meh on 4K in general. I hadn’t seen anything that really impressed. I‘ve been more along for the ride, belatedly keeping up with the tech. But now, I’m looking forward to a new projector like I haven’t before!

I'm with you Dave. I'm not impressed with 4K. 2K upscaled looks good enough for me. Save your money for better hardware!

 

[John Dirk]

I’ve kinda meh on 4K in general. I hadn’t seen anything that really impressed. I‘ve been more along for the ride, belatedly keeping up with the tech. But now, I’m looking forward to a new projector like I haven’t before!

I'm with you Dave. I'm not impressed with 4K. 2K upscaled looks good enough for me. Save your money for better hardware!

From a technical standpoint, I know this to be true. I also know for a certainty that my aging eyes cannot tell the difference unless I'm looking at something like end credits, and even then it's of no real consequence.

On the other hand, my next projector needs to be my last, so I'm a little concerned about not going full-on 4K. I'm much more concerned, however, with dynamic tone-mapping. If the LS12000 had that [and 3D] I'd probably already have ordered one.

What I'm slowly starting to accept can be illustrated as below. Project Managers will recognize this is the Quality Triangle. While not directly applicable here [since we're not talking about a project] it basically implies that in any decision, something has to give. If you want every feature imaginable then you'll have to "give" on price. If you want a more manageable price then you'll have to give on features, etc.

Honestly, I "could" spend $10K on a projector. My wife has even signed off on it already. I'm just not sure I want to as that's a large chunk of cash for what I perceive will be minimal return. With that in mind, my choices are either to wait [concede on time] for better options or buy the Epson LS12000 [concede on features] and be done with it.

There is no one correct answer, which annoys scientific types like me.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I’ve kinda meh on 4K in general. I hadn’t seen anything that really impressed. I‘ve been more along for the ride, belatedly keeping up with the tech. But now, I’m looking forward to a new projector like I haven’t before!

I'm with you Dave. I'm not impressed with 4K. 2K upscaled looks good enough for me. Save your money for better hardware!

Yeah, which is why I'm generally not clamoring for 4K disc releases and certainly not usually that quick to upgrade to them (and even occasionally just opted for 4K digitals on these <=$5 sales... especially if I already have good quality BDs for those titles).

Still, it would be good to have (substantially) better HDR performance on a PJ that doesn't break the bank. There's just no way I'm gonna spend $10K-plus (or probably anywhere close to that) on a PJ (plus processing?) just to get there. I'd much sooner give 1/2 of that to charity or do whatever else good (and there really are so many other IMHO better ways to spend the extra $5K-plus) and maybe just buy the next gen Epson or the like while still enjoying what I already have now...

I mean, sure, if my net worth is in the hundreds of millions (or billions), I suppose I might spring for the NZ8 or NZ9 (and some 6-figure speakers to boot... or maybe not, LOL) and not bat much an eyelash, heh...

In the end, IMHO, we're only gonna be as satisfied and happy w/ things as we set our minds and hearts to be, and we could be chasing an endless "holy grail" and never be satisfied enough otherwise...

_Man_

PS: Sorry if I came across (too) preachy or anything like that. Not looking to argue w/ anyone about personal discretionary spending and life choices/priorities on an enthusiast site, LOL...

 

[John Dirk]

In the end, IMHO, we're only gonna be as satisfied and happy w/ things as we set our minds and hearts to be, and we could be chasing an endless "holy grail" and never be satisfied enough otherwise...

Couldn't agree more. I've also been thinking lately about how much time I spend simply enjoying what I have as opposed to trying to optimize it. The fact is, a lot of the best content out there would benefit very minimally [if at all] from HDR, 4K, etc.

PS: Sorry if I came across (too) preachy or anything like that. Not looking to argue w/ anyone about personal discretionary spending and life choices/priorities on an enthusiast site, LOL...

You didn't in my view but please see below...

I'd much sooner give 1/2 of that to charity

Today I'm announcing the "John Dirk AV Enlightenment Fund" It's a charitable foundation accepting donations as of today. Really, it is...

 

[DaveF]

It’s less about the 4K pixels and more about the wide color gamut and high dynamic range.