An idea for the best tv writing team ever! Buffy and B5! (1 Viewer)

[Paul P]

Ok,

so I was watching buffy this weekend, and realized how great of a dialogue writer Joss Whedon is. But in watching Buffy, and reading interviews with Joss, I've realized that although he can write decent plot and character arcs, he kind of thinks them up on the fly. Then I thought about my favorite sci-fi television show, Babylon 5, and its writer JMS. He can't write dialogue(some is ok), but the show as a whole was great. Mainly because of his innovative characters and amazing plot and character arcs that spanned the years of a television show. Then it struck me. They would be amazing as a collaborative team. They both have television and comic writing experience, both are generally strong as writers, but are specifically strong in the others weak area, and are some the more innovative writers in television today. Wouldn't that be great?

And if they brought beer. Really great beer, like keystone, and keystone light. Bottled beer taste in a can, that tastes like beer in a bottle. Wouldn't that be great!

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Actually, on the fly is the exact opposite of how things work in the mind of Most Perfect. I think Marti Noxon said it best when she said that she came upon him pacing back and forth, and asked him what was wrong, and he replied that he was trying to figure out what should happen in episode 7 next year

 

[Mike Broadman]

The thing about JMS' dialogue is that, yes, some of it is painful, but when it's good, it's the best. Some of it for the foreshadowing (Walker Smith telling Garibaldi to "watch his back"), and some for character development. The scene in the broken elevator with G'Kar and Londo was one of the most dramatic and comedic moments in TV history.
And of course, the greatest dialogue character: Kosh
I don't know much about Buffy, though. I understand that it's appeal, or part of it, lies in its youth target, something B5 didn't really have. If they make that new Rangers series, there would be younger characters there. Would be interesting to see that play out.

 

[Paul P]

Yes. . .

 

[Arkady Kleiner]

JMS and Joss Whedon are known to like each other's work ('Buffy' and 'Babylon 5'), so they would probably like working with each other.
Unfortunately, at the moment both have too much on their plate. And frankly i'd like Whedon to concentrate more on 'Buffy', then split himself alittle more working on yet another new show.
JMS already has 'Jeremiah' which he says is high priority for him. Then there's this new 'Polaris' show he's developing. And if 'B5:Rangers' goes to series, he probably won't have time for anything more. There's only so many hours in a day after all.
But it'd be great . Maybe some day.

 

[Jason Seaver]

I think Marti Noxon said it best when she said that she came upon him pacing back and forth, and asked him what was wrong, and he replied that he was trying to figure out what should happen in episode 7 next year.

Egads. Why not just worry about making one good hour of televsion this week, then one good hour of television the next week, and worry about fifteen episodes down the line four months from now?

 

[Paul P]

I think Marti Noxon said it best when she said that she came upon him pacing back and forth, and asked him what was wrong, and he replied that he was trying to figure out what should happen in episode 7 next year.

And Jason- This is precisely my point. JMS' most amazing quality is that he can plan out a series that far ahead. He knows where they're going ahead of time. This prevents the typical problem critiqued in Buffy episodes like the gift, where major plot shifts seem contrived and could have been done better. Joss plans ahead, but only about a season or so. This leaves many random weavings between seasons, without quite enough of a sense of continuity for the series as a whole. I've only recently started watching Buffy from the beginning, and it's quite different. I love the coming of age/struggling metaphors, but there could be so much more.
So if Joss is looking to get a little distance from Buffy and all of her spinoffs, maybe a series with JMS would fit the bill
Maybe this thread isn't going to connect with most people, since most are fans of one series or the other.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Egads. Why not just worry about making one good hour of televsion this week, then one good hour of television the next week, and worry about fifteen episodes down the line four months from now?

Because he's making the whole thing fit together. Stuff like why Tara hid the demon detecting powder that wasn't resolved until about 12 episodes later (and the following season)

Of course he concentrates on the current episode, but it has to fit into the bigger picture as well

 

[Jason Seaver]

Because he's making the whole thing fit together. Stuff like why Tara hid the demon detecting powder that wasn't resolved until about 12 episodes later (and the following season)

Perhaps the worst example you could cite. That's a detail which irritated people when it first appeared, and apparently existed for no other reason than to lead into a resolution episode.

 

[Robert Ringwald]

What about the dream scene in Graduation Day?

Faith mentioned 'Little Miss Muffet'

Which was Dawn.

That was the end of season 3, Dawn wasn't revealed until the beginning of Season 5. And Dawn was basically there to lead up to Buffy's death, so it can be said that Joss planned that one at least the middle of season 3, or more...

So he does a lot of foreshadowing that really does help the show and make it all fit together. I also love when they reference really, really old episodes and situations, almost every week. Something most shows do only once a year, or less...

 

[Brad Grenz]

There's definitely some prearrangement going on in Joss' head, but what confuses it is that I think he, and the other writers, also like to look and previous episodes work what might have been throw away lines into the new stuff. I'm guessing that happens a lot, mostly cause I don't think they could have possibly been orchestrated to such a fine level of detail. But than again, Jeff might be right and Joss could be God.

 

[Paul P]

See it feels more to me that he(Joss) has plot lines/arcs that run around 2 years, whereas JMS ran plot lines for Babylon 5 deliberately that started in the first season, and got resolved in the end. It all got wrapped up rather nicely. For Buffy it seems that they kind of plan a two-year plot line, then say "what can we do now?" With B5 it was more cohesive. Then again, with Buffy, maybe it shouldn't be "going somewhere" specific, since it's about the maturing metaphor, and we often don't know where we're going, and often end up in a different place than we had planned.

 

[TheLongshot]

JMS had the advantage that his show was only going to last 5 years and no more. He had a beginning, middle, and end. Joss doesn't have that with Buffy. In fact B5 is the exception, not the rule.

When Joss finishes an arc, he also needs to plan where to go next. It can lead to some awkward plot threads to get there. It also has the possibility of not being as good too.

I don't envy TV writers. They have to keep a show fresh, even if there is 7-8 years of history.

Course, we then have guys like Chris Carter, who go "screw it" and not go anywere with the arcs.

Jason

 

[Mike Broadman]

The thing is, JMS was asked to do more season of B5. He refused, saying it was a 5 year show- no more, no less.

I wonder if other executive producers have that kind of control or desire.

 

[Paul P]

Well I mean, c'mon. Would anyone be willing to continue another season of B5 without JMS?

Jason- AWESOME. X-Files decayed from promising to a simple "WHAT????"

I agree B5 is the exception, but imagine how much better a series could be if planned in such a manner. What I find impressive in the two series is the levels the writing achieves. B5 had such planning, such foreshadowing, drama, and power, that you really can't sit down to one episode without wanting to watch a season and a half. I've shown a friend an episode, and then every time it turns into an all night event. The writing includes everything from social critiques to religious and cultural representations in the different alien races. The acting improved after the first season. Buffy has a whole different element of depth through the subtext of the personal growth theme, combined with powerful dialogue and multi-dimensional characters. These two shows begin to embody what television is capable of, the opportunity to use multiple elements well to tell long term, epic size stories that in the end ring true to life. Instead television is all too often a distraction, petty storylines and contrived plots, surface acting and no compelling themes. The closest to these long term story-arcs typically achieved are in movie sequels, such as star wars. The potential is there, with such great writers and actors out there. I'm just waiting for that powerhouse combination to finally come together and make the ultimate series. Waiting might be pointless. Maybe I should take more direct steps. Hmmm.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Paul, you'll get no argument from me. I never watch Buffy (sorry folks, I simply cannot bring myself to watch a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer), but so many respectable people give it such good praise, including HTF members, that I certainly give it respect.

Babylon 5, with no exaggeration, completely changed the way I look at television. Before, bad TV never really bothered me, because I just figured that TV wasn't capable of better. Now I feel differently. At its best, I think it can be a more powerful story-telling tool than movies. There is simply more time to get into the characters.

Of course, this never happens.

Now, when I see bad television, I sometimes actually get angry that no one is using the TV medium to its full potential.

 

[Paul P]

Mike, give BTVS a chance. Trust me. It's really worth it.

 

[Timothy Alexander]

(sorry folks, I simply cannot bring myself to watch a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

And That, unfortunatley, is exactly why such a great show as Buffy doesn't get the recognition it deserves. :frowning:

 

[Mike Broadman]

Ugh, I should have known to shut up about Buffy.

Look, I just don't watch a lot of TV. Simpsons, Family Guy, Boston Public (only because I started last season), sometimes Frasier, and anything Star Trek and Babylon 5 related. I really have no "room" for anything else.

Maybe if they'd show Buffy on re-runs from the beginning I'd check out an episode or two. But I still don't think I could bring myself to actually watch something with a blonde cheerleader battling vampires. You have to admit, it's a lot to get over before seriously watching it, even if it is a great show.

I've had lots of people tell me they couldn't watch a show with funny looking aliens and computer graphics (B5). That's cool. Some things just ain't for everyone.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Maybe if they'd show Buffy on re-runs from the beginning I'd check out an episode or two. But I still don't think I could bring myself to actually watch something with a blonde cheerleader battling vampires. You have to admit, it's a lot to get over before seriously watching it, even if it is a great show.

They do, check your local listings, or tune into FX. They'll hit the beginning again around mid March.

She was a cheerleader in the TV show for exactly 1 episode. If you've seen the movie, erase it from your mind as what the show is like.

Come to the light of Lord Whedon, he will bring your joy and comfort my son.

Lama lama ding dong!

Jeff "Insane High Priest o' Joss" Kleist