5.1 versus 6.1/7.1 and more... (1 Viewer)

[reed hunt]

Greetings all.

We are currently adding on to our house and are planning to use one of the two additional rooms for double-duty - as a new play room for our girls and as a nice, though relatively modest HT room...

With regard to the latter (and working with currently open walls) I have had our low voltage guy and electrician wire the room (about 12x16) for a 5.1 surround system, though I have not actually run any wire for a sub (since I don't know exactly where I will locate it).

The equipment will be located in the room's closet and will have a dedicated line with enough juice to handle potential power. We have also had speaker wire run along the trusses and into the front wall - ones that will allow for power and L, R, and C speakers. However, my wife is balking at front, in-wall speakers, preferring to not cut holes in the walls and instead simply pull the wires through (tastefully) and use small, free-standing speakers. While I originally protested, I may well lose this battle and have to fall in line. I can live with this, as I already have available two small Polk speakers and a Polk center channel speaker as well.

So, without confusing things too much more, should I run two more rear wires for possible future 7.1 uses, is there a strong downside to using free-standing front speakers and in-ceiling rears, assuming I stay with Polk for the rears, and should I run sub speaker wires to an assumed location or, since this would probably be along the rear wall, are sub wires less of a challenge to deal with later in the game?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[homthtr]

All you need to run for your sub line(s) is a RG6 coax. Just make sure there's a power outlet next to where you run the coax so you can plug in your sub(s).

I would run at least one to the front (if not 2) and One or Two to the rear as needed. You can always not use them..It's cheaper and easier to overwire and not use them then to have to "try" to add them later.

Have the 7.1 wired also you can always leave it burried in the wall for future use or maybe never use it at all, but again wire is cheap when the walls are open. retro installs are sometimes expensive if not amost impossible without major reconstruction.

 

[BruceSpielbauer]

The advice above is 100% right on the mark, in every way.

-If the walls are open, you should run everything and everything to try to cover all bases. Think of it as trying to "future-proof" it. By all means, run for 7.1. By all means, run subwoofer cabling for every possible location where you reasonably think one MIGHT end up in the future... You can leave the cables buried, for now. Then, when you suddenly have the two surrounds to hang on that wall, or when you suddenly have a second subwoofer, you will find it is easy to add. Once closed up, it can soemtimes be nearly impossible to try to retrofit. I have one location (in a second floor bedroom) where this is true, and I have received three quotes of more than $1000 just to try to get a second coax feed to this spot.

-You might also consider utilizing conduit. Either the flexible stuff (do a Google on "smurf tube") or the PVC gray stuff. Many people run the smurf tube for speaker cabling, and then use the PVC gray for a major run for a future front projector for video, as an example. Then, you can also cable it as you would like, but also add a strong "pull string" so that you can easily run NEW cables through to those same locations. In the world of changing technology, this might allow you to keep up in future years. As an example, the state of the art cable for high definition video in 2002 was DVI. Anyone installing at that time would have run it. Here we are only four years later, and there is already equipment which has dropped the DVI connection as "yesterday's technology," and which now _requires_ the newer HDMI cable in order to gain maximum effectiveness. Another example -- Ethernet and Cat 5 runs are also a popular method of future-proofing, since many people believe this will be the future for whole house audio and video, perhaps with one server feeding all locations. Yet, who knows what form that will really take? Thus, the idea of the "pull string."

Also, as stated above, cable (of any type) is cheap, and easy to run in open walls. However, it can be very expensive if you run out to your big box store or even to a Radio Shack to buy. I suggest purchasing it in large supplies on-line. Then it can cost pennies on the dollar, in comparison, for the same quality stuff...

A couple of examples... check out Ram Electronics (one of the sponsors of this forum). Or, a place called Monoprice.com or a place called Parts Express, which I THINK is a sponsor here, but I am not certain.

(I hope I have not violated any rules by this last paragraph... if I need to remove it, Mods, please let me know).

Just my thoughts,

-Bruce

 

[homthtr]

Yes good idea on the smurf tubing also..

And another good idea since your are putting the equipment in the closet is to run a 2-3" pipe chase from the closet to behind where you TV is located. You never know what video cables your going to need in the future. If you need to get a HDMI or VGA or any other premade cable with a large end on it you will need the largest pipe chase you can get into your wall to your TV location. Even 2 chases isn't out of the question. A Cheap Way to do that is to run Thinwall PVC ( the same stuff they use for Central Vacs). You can get that from any local Central Vac company or supply house. It's cheaper and it's thinner walled then regular PVC pipe. I think a bundle of 20-10' pieces is only around $30-$50. Plus a couple elbows and your good to go!!

BTW I didn't hear any Video Cables from the Equipment to your TV location.

We us a 5 conductor mini bundled coax right now for running HD component video.


How are you getting the video to you TV?

If you are not prewiring for your Video then be sure to install the above pipe chase(s)!!

At minimum for your Video to the TV should be at least 6 coax ( that would give you two seperate component video feeds) Add a few more coax for possible audio, Composite video, the more the better!....

Remember with your equipment is going to be in the closet and that you will need your service coax for your Cable, satellite, Phone, Antenna etc brought to the closet! NOT to the tv location!!.

You need your services at the equipment location in the closet and then video runs to the TV.

Your Dvd player, Cable, Satellite, VCR, all your source components will be in the closet so you need the service lines to the closet. Don't forget a in addition to 1 cat5 for phone to have another Cat5 for internet. Trust me you'll need it for the future. Or at least have another pipe chase to the unfiished portion of the basement so you can get wires to your incoming services.

Remember if you have Tivo or other Dual satellite type equipment you need 2 coax to the closet just for the satellite.

Lots to remember before the walls go up!

There are many codes that have to be followed in order for you to pass inspection. I'm assuming your doing this project on the up and up and have pulled permits and will have inspectors around...

You may want to consult with a local AV installation company if you are uncomfortable with any of the above.

You can ask them for an estimate on a "prewire" only. At least you can get another opinion on Service and Video Runs.

A Full "Prewire only" for what you are looking to do including the pipe chases shouldn't be more than $2000.

Then you know you'll be good to go and do the happy dance!!! (where's the insert music clip here button!!! LOL)

 

[reed hunt]

Wow, head spinning.

Thank you all for your responses, now it's time for me to digest it!

I'll be back...

 

[homthtr]

Sorry to make your head spin, but I design systems for a living and hate to forget anything. I still might be leaving a few things out as I'm only relying on the info in this thread. Lots and Lot's of things to remember and think about. Even simple things like "nail guards" where your wires enter through your top studs to run into the wall so when the drywall goes up you (or your drywaller) doesn't end up putting a screw or nail through your new wire!

The nice part about DIY projects is that you will have a full understanding of the logic behind your system, how everything is hooked up and you'll know where to start looking when it comes time to troubleshoot anything that's not working correctly. You are at a Mid-Level advanced project so research, research and ask ask ask then ask some more questions. I've been doing prewires and system setups for over 20 years and still learning to this day. With all the new technology coming out there's lots of bases to cover.

That's what brought me to this forum I wished I would have found it years ago!! (as you see my Join date is only last month and already I have over 200 posts) There's lots of ways to do everything. I'll never be 100% in agreement with everyone (and nobody ever is) but all the ideas,comments, and thoughts that are shared in this forum put together are priceless!

We haven't even started to talk about how you are going to control your equipment when it's in the closet. If the door is going to be closed and you want to operate everything we can start a whole new discussion on how you're going to do that. You'll probably want to end up with an RF Learning Remote of some type. And the Programming knowledge/training to get just that part up and running correctly. We'll cross that bridge when you get there!!..

Keep coming back... I'm going to keep a close eye on this thread as I want to see how your progress is going and.....

if you are able to share Pictures of your installation as it progresses that would be great! It also helps to keep digital pictures of your prewire so you can always look back at them if you burry wires so years down the road you can revisit your pictures and review what you did in the past. I take pictures of anything I do in all stages, it's a nice way to look back at all the hard work you put into your system.

I'm sure everyone else will like to see this progress also! and....It will help the next person that comes here and wants to do the same thing you are doing!!

 

[reed hunt]

Hmmm, pondering...

The sub run and additional rear speaker runs should be pretty easy. I WILL need to get cabling from my closet to where the TV will be, so I think some type of flex tubing is in order (as recommended).

I currently have a dedicated power source (direct from the panel) that I had the electrician add and have a cable line to the closet as well.

What I was thinking for control was some type of wireless controller at or near the TV, through which I could control all components - do these exist and/or is there a better alternative?

I currently have my Internet cable line outlet in another room (and am running another cable line to the closet from that spot) and run a wireless router setup for laptops but will run an ethernet cable from that outlet to my desktop computer, once the adjoining room is back together (am currently using a wireless USB setup in an upstairs temporary "computer room").

More later, still spinning (but all great input)!

 

[homthtr]

How long is the run from the Closet to the TV (that is from the equipment up over and down to the tv) total length? and add 2 feet at the equipment end and 3 feet at the TV end.... What's the total distance?

 

[reed hunt]

Perhaps 20 feet or so.

Also, the walls are just about to be closed (i.e., the expanding foam sealant went in today). With this in mind, is there an "issue" with running the sub speaker wire in the same "holes" in the 2x4s as the wiring going to an electrical outlet (any electrical interference issues?). I am probably at a point where drilling any more holes is problematic, timing-wise, so I may have to use existing ones but only if it doesn't create problems (code issues notwithstanding...)

 

[fredpamm]

While my walls are open, I wired for 9.2 (nine channels and two subwoofers) figuring that was the next step after 7.1...

 

[homthtr]

running wires through the electricians wires ESPECIALLY for the sub is a VERY bad idea. 120 VOLT House Current is Operating at 60 Hertz.... the same Frequence that the sub just loves.... you should Never used the same holes and try to stay at least 12" away if running parellel to the electricians wires.

Brings me back to an old joke......

>>Why does the subwoofer HUM????

>> Because it doesn't know the words!!!!


or because your sub lines are running with the electric... hmmmm...

 

[homthtr]

the reason I was asking the distance is you could get a couple 25' premade component cables in the walls from your equipment closet to the TV before they start the drywalling. At least you'll have Component Video for HDTV. If you can I would also run a 25' HDMI Cable right away or even 2... then your set for the future.. at least for now... the 25' HDMI cables won't be cheap. Plan on around $250.00-$350 each.

 

[Mike~Sileck]

Don't forget to run Ethernet cabling!!!!


(just a networking technicians two cents!)

 

[homthtr]

Yes I suggested that at least to the Equipment Closet that the Equipment will be going. I'm sure we're going to see everything networked in the VERY near future. That old thought of the Fridge having an Ethernet port isn't so funny anymore!

Cat5 everywhere! Streaming Video,Music,Internet, it's all there already. I'm sure everything will have an IP address very soon. Your Furnace, Lights, telephone, and yes the Refridgerator! It only makes sense!

 

[Mike~Sileck]

Maybe even Cat6?

Futureproofing!!

 

[reed hunt]

Ah, a little humor - good one.

OK, so a bad idea (glad I asked). So, I will probably have to go down (into the crawl) and back up into the wall behind where the sub is likely to go. There's also an outlet there, so that should work plus the wires will be coming from different directions...

 

[homthtr]

If you have to cross electric do so at a 90 degree.

+ < like that. The 60 hertz will not pass transfer (crosstalk) to the sub line that way.

It's always a good idea if you have to go across electric cross at a 90 degree angle.

Never parallel an electricians run, if you have to parellel electric be a minimum of 12" away.

and if the sub doesn't know the words it because the suggestions above were not followed. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[reed hunt]

A bit of a break - I now have a couple days of reprieve and can probably get at least a center rear speaker wired and perhaps a sub. I am also working on getting a 2 inch conduit run that will allow access from the new attic area into that wall space in the closet. At that point, and with all the others wires that have their junction there, I would like to install some type of panel that would allow me to neatly "collect" and provide plugs or terminals for the wires plus leave a bit of room for future wires, etc.

Any thoughts of simple solutions for this?

Also, if I do get this conduit in (which will require drilling through three 2x4s, is this sufficient for now in terms of future cabling needs, in particular for a future TV of some sort? Let me add that this attic access will also allow me to drop wires behind where I plan to put a future TV, at which point I would just need to neatly (again) pull them through and provide some type of trim to minimize the visual "mess".

Thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[homthtr]

We use OpenHouse(tm) panels they are available in a few different sizes and fit right into the 16 on center studs in the wall and will be flush to the drywall when done.

there is a 14x18
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=182-700&DID=7

and a 14x36
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=182-704&DID=7

there's 4 nockouts at the top and 2 at the bottom to fix your 2" pipe(s)

Run as many pipes to as many places you have access like the attic, unfinished part of the basement, behind the tv etc.

I can see everything going optical sometime in the future but it's not cost effective yet. Especially when it comes time to terminate optical.

There's also a spot on the bottom of the panel for an electric box(socket).


I just finished this project and you can see the panels if you look close just above the equipment racks.
They blend right into the wall so you have to look close..
Your Closet will probably end up looking very simular to the one I just got done with...



Here's another during the Rough in Phase... where you're at right now...


Here's another showing how the pvc pipe can fix directly into the top
( Yes that's me. I do work sometimes )

 

[reed hunt]

Hey, just like clockwork!

Thanks for your reply - and I am going to get busy on Google. I think my endeavor is much more modest than what you have done, but points well taken, nonetheless.