Upgrading the DaveF household to 4K UHD (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

Strangely enough, I had lip sync issues with the integrated apps in my LG OLED 55" display. When I used the same apps on my Roku Ultra, the lip sync issue was nonexistent. The other thing you have to watch out for is that LG doesn't do a great job of supporting its integrated apps long term. It's been my experience that more and more will get discontinued over time, as they focus on the integrated apps for the newest models.

That’s fine. That’s tomorrow. Today the TV apps work. But no need to spend money today because technology might change in two or three years. And if I need dedicated streaming boxes in two or three years, I’ll buy them and they’ll be half the price they are today.

And so far from initial use, the LG apps work great, on par with the AppleTV

 

[JohnRice]

I already have a couple ATV 4Ks, so I use them. Your logic makes sense. If the TVs apps work now, then use them now. At the least, in 2-3 years you'll have a generation of two newer ATV when the times come that you need one. Half the price of today? Well, I'm not so sure of that, but newer and better, certainly.

 

[Bryan^H]

What I'm most unsure about is unchanged: 4K Projector.

The 4K projector options really surged in quality and dropped in price circa 2017 and 2018. But ... it seems to have stagnated in the upper / mid range. It appears the rapid changes were too fast and now both JVC and Sony are playing catchup in production and quality tweaks to their 2018-ish models. So, do I wait for 2020 CEDIA to see the new projectors? Do I buy a ~$8000 4k JVC N7? Should I look at the ~$3000 Epson models? Mounting and HDMI cable and whether I need to replace my current screen are also worry points...but I can sort those out once I've got the projector bought and in hand.

You aren't interested in Ultra Short Throw Laser projectors?

This new option has given me the opportunity for a dedicated "living room" theater.

 

[DaveF]

I already have a couple ATV 4Ks, so I use them. Your logic makes sense. If the TVs apps work now, then use them now. At the least, in 2-3 years you'll have a generation of two newer ATV when the times come that you need one. Half the price of today? Well, I'm not so sure of that, but newer and better, certainly.

Yeah, I've got a pair of HD aTVs. But haven't bought 4K units yet. And surprisingly, the Emby app (which I care about for my HTPC use) in LG works better than Emby in AppleTV. AppleTV is great for standard streaming services, but it's mediocre for us HTPC weirdos.

If I run in to problems like Adam has, maybe due to ARC, then I'll get a streaming box. (Never used ARC so don't know what to expect.)

You aren't interested in Ultra Short Throw Laser projectors?

This new option has given me the opportunity for a dedicated "living room" theater.

No. I need a conventional, ceiling-hung projector. Basic hope is to swap old projector for new projector. Give or take some cursing and gnashing of teeth over changing the mount hardware and and getting new HDMI cables through the run.

 

[DaveF]

You seem like you have some money to spend.

I will address your points below.

1) CEDIA? I don't know. I suspect you have better insight and access than I do.

2) Mid range? Why even bother? I'm VERY happy with my Oppo 203. I know I I could sell it at a healthy profit these days but I haven't chosen to do so yet.

3) Perhaps but I'm happy with my 7702MKII.

1. Not access, but watching projectors since about 2016 and learning that TVs are announced in Winter at CES and projectors in Fall at CEDIA.

2. Multiple separate factors here:
First, I don't really plan/hope to use the projector much so don't want to dump $1000 into it. HTPC, remember? But I want a backstop for 4K playback in case of SAF or HTPC dies before a party. So I'll have a disc player.

Second, my desired projector now does its own HDR tone-mapping, so no benefit (in fact negatives from rich of double tone mapping interactions) from an expensive player's video processing. Current recommendations I'm seeing are for a good, affordable UB420. At $150 best price so far, I'm a little temped to buy it now and toss it in the closet.

Third, If I needed a disc player with processing (to be safe), if I don't get the JVC, then I'd go for the UB820 for its processing. It's got great reviews. And I've yet to figure out why anyone would spend $1000 on a UHD player. Bits are bits, and all that.

Fourth, Oppo disc players are discontinued, so that's moot.

3. If I didn't already need a new living room AVR for 4K and HDMI ARC, I'd probably hold off on the pre/pro upgrade. But If I'm already buying a new Denon, and can maybe get some bundled sale pricing and fingers crossed sell the 7702mkII.... well, in for a penny...

 

[Todd Erwin]

Living Room

• Sony 65” X950H (2020)
• Denon AVR-X1600H (2019) (is there a 2020 upgrade coming?)
  
• TiVo Mini (current gear)
• No streaming box. Hoping Sony apps cover that adequately for living room.
  
• No 4K disc player. Haven't watched a disc in living room in 2+ year

The Sony TV will have Android TV, so it should have nearly everything except for Apple TV, possibly. I tried using the Android TV apps on my Sony TV, but found the same apps on my Roku seemed to load faster.

I've also never had good luck using ARC, so I usually just go with a streaming device.

 

[JohnRice]

The UB420 is currently on sale at BB for $150.

 

[DaveF]

You seem like you have some money to spend.

Yes. I've been saving for a few years. It's in the household budget. And we can now afford this without damaging our financial well being.

Big expenses planned for 2020 electronics. But for some perspective: my living room and bedroom systems are literally ten years old, bought during the HD transition of 2009 - 2010. The theater is in its fourth year. In 2016, I bought an HD projector. It was too early to go 4K projection. I chose a stop gap, guessing in three or four years that quality 4K projectors would be under $5000.


**********

With that out of the way, this is a topic that is in the back of my mind sometimes reading HTF. But since you're asking me, I'll go down this rabbit hole for a moment.

I see people with 10,000 to 20,000 disc libraries, and I think, wow! That's $100k to $400k in discs sitting in shelves! Even over 20 years, that's like $10k per year just buying movies. I get the impression people have thousands, even tens of thousands, of dollars in discs unwatched still in the shrink wrap! And I think me buying some 4k hardware is peanuts compared to the movie collector enthusiasts!

Similarly, folks buying a new top-tier smartphone or a new high end laptop annually...and I hope their finances are ok for that.

This can be an expensive hobby. And I can only assume that people can manage their own finances.

**********

I think if the HTF archive were intact, there'd be my posts from around 2001 about trying to scrounge $200 to buy a KLH 5.1 system. About buying a $10 paver to improve the bass response in my apartment. And making a $5 foam core cardboard matte for my hand-me-down 27" CRT to improve the appearance of letterboxed DVDs.

A couple of decades later, and a few years of savings, I can start indulging in the 4K transition that other people have been buying into already for several years now. I'm slow to upgrade, so when I do, I get the best hardware I can to last me a good while.

Relatively speaking the only expensive item is the projector. The new 50" and 65" 4K TVs together will cost less than my 50" Kuro from ten years ago -- and that was Pioneer's clearance pricing when they were quitting the Plasma TV business! Crazy!

**********

The only part that gets me handwringing is the projector. The JVC N7 seems like the way to go. It's the total package for a 4K projector. But its MSRP is $9000 (I swore it was $8000 at launch), and the best pricing I know of was the $6600 pre-order (which is my line item budget).

The Epson 5050UB at $3000 is basically what I paid for my current Sony 40ES. So I could buy that without budgetary angst, with a view towards upgrading again in four years.

I just don't know yet. So I hope to hold off on the projector until this Fall for any new models, new prices, etc. And also to be ready to jump into pre-order pricing. And risking not actually getting a 4K projector until 2021 if there are new models with delivery delays like in JVC 2018 Fall launch that turned into Spring 2019 deliveries.

**********

So yes. Been saving and planning and researching and I think I'm going to spend all my money in 2020 to leap into 4K! Ok, where's that blasted banana...

 

[DaveF]

The Sony TV will have Android TV, so it should have nearly everything except for Apple TV, possibly. I tried using the Android TV apps on my Sony TV, but found the same apps on my Roku seemed to load faster.

I've also never had good luck using ARC, so I usually just go with a streaming device.

Yeah, I was doing a little reading. Looks like the Sony has a really good "smart" system like LG, being based on Android TV as you say. So If it's got Netflix, Prime, Disney, Hulu, CW, and Emby, it should suit me for a couple years until apps become obsolete. Then I'll buy a streaming device.

For the main viewing room: I keep hoping against hope that Apple will release a new box that truly supports Atmos and becomes the new HTPC platform of choice. Probably won't happen. But still wishing.

 

[John Dirk]

This can be an expensive hobby. And I can only assume that people can manage their own finances.

I hope you realize my original comment was simply tongue in cheek. I would never try to tell a person how best to spend their hard-earned money unless specifically asked. Whatever decisions you ultimately make, I know will be well-informed ones.

 

[DaveF]

I hope you realize my original comment was simply tongue in cheek. I would never try to tell a person how best to spend their hard-earned money unless specifically asked. Whatever decisions you ultimately make, I know will be well-informed ones.

Oh, I know.


That’ll teach you!

 

[DaveF]

My hopes for a JVC NX7 are diminishing. Price has gone up a $1000 since launch!!!

Then:
“The next projectors in the new true 4K line-up are the JVC DLA-NX7/DLA-RS2000. These are 1,900 lumen projectors with an 80,000:1 native contrast ratio and an 800,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. These projectors are an extra $2,000 up from the DLA-NX5/DLA-RS1000 – $7,999.95. JVC claims these models reach 100% of P3/BT.2020 color space. If so, I’m truly impressed. Hopefully, we get one of these in for the next Home Theater Projector’s Report!”
https://www.projectorreviews.com/articles-guides/jvc-dla-n5-dla-n7-and-dla-nx9-launch-at-cedia-2018


Now:
“Home Projector
DLA-NX7
$8,999.95”
http://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/procision/dla_nx7/

 

[DaveF]

With JVC N7 now at $9000 list price, I’m giving increasing consideration to “budget” projectors like the Epson 5050 whose $3000 list is literally one third the jvc.

But there are trade offs. I’ll have to find some demos. Maybe get back Sam’s to check his JVC 590 out again.

“So far so good, so are there any negatives? Of course there are, no display is perfect, especially one that costs less than £2,000. The biggest issue with the TW7400 is its black levels and shadow detail, both of which are poor. That's not a huge surprise, delivering decent blacks has never been a strong point of LCD but even for a projector that uses this technology the TW7400 is disappointing.

However, this is less of an issue than you might at first think. The weakness of the black levels and lack of detail in shadows was obvious in my pitch black home cinema, but the TW7400 is unlikely to be used in such an environment. In fact, if you are building a blacked home cinema, I'd strongly recommend that you look at one of the JVC projectors.”

https://www.avforums.com/reviews/epson-eh-tw7400-projector-review.15848

 

[Josh Steinberg]

FWIW, try to see the Epson in action if you can. As far as black levels go: I remember when plasma was supposed to have the very best ones and I had a plasma and they were indeed great. Then I got the TCL series 6 LED LCD and it blew the black levels from the plasma away.

Until recently I used the Epson almost daily, usually directly after watching the LG or TCL, and I was never once like, “oh crap, where did the black go?” I feel like the Epson does better than that review gave it credit for, especially in practical use vs testing all the specs for a review.

 

[Dave Moritz]

If you have no purchased a 4K UHD Blu-ray player yet you should consider the Panasonic DP-UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray Player or at least the UB900.

Don't know if your considering the 4K Apple TV or not but my only concern would be how good would it look using a projector and a screen 100" and bigger. I do have a 4K Apple TV and it looks very good on my Sony XBR55A9F OLED but again it is only 55".

 

[DaveF]

Yes. Nothing is ruled out yet. A big practical trade as of 2019 models is tone mapping. Which basically is: spend big to get the best, or save a bundle for ok.

1. JVC N5 & N7 have firmware Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) that’s really good. Because it’s the projector, it applies to all content: TiVo, streaming services from any box, HTPC, disc player. Everything.
   
2. Panasonic 820UB has static tone mapping. Its good, it not as good as JVC’s DTM. It only applies to content from the player. I don’t want to use a player anyway (HTPC, natch) and would never use it as my streaming box, so this isn’t a robust nor desired solution.
3. HTPC upgrade to run madVR would beat Panny disc player for “discs”. But still no help good for streaming or TiVo. And I no longer use PC as HTPC client due to Win10 quirks.
   
4. Shield (2019) i think is said to have a competent tone mapping capability. Good for my HTPC (“discs”). It could help streaming if I switch from Apple TV to Shield for Netflix, etc.
5. Epson 5050 has its own tone mapping, but is inferior to JVC and for fussy viewers, can involve per-movie and even in-movie adjusting.

As I’ve written this, I realize demoing would ideally include not just discs, but streaming services and even HTPC content to understand the value of tone-mapping solutions. That probably implies on-home demos, be it other owners or my own borrowing from a retailer.

Fortunately, I don’t plan to buy until after CEDIA in the Fall so I’ve still got time to work this.

Unless an N7 falls in my lap for $4999. Then I’m buying.

 

[DaveF]

If you have no purchased a 4K UHD Blu-ray player yet you should consider the Panasonic DP-UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray Player or at least the UB900.

Thanks for the suggestion. Here’s what I understand as of 2020:

1. If you have projector with middling or no tone mapping, Panasonic UB820 is currently the disc player to get.
2. Unless you have a JVC N5/7/9. The projector’s image processing beats Panny’s, so get a cheaper player (e.g. Panasonic UB420).
   
3. But I’m an HTPC user, hope to never use a disc player, so want the minimum acceptable BD player as fallback. That might be the Panny UB820 if I buy a budget projector. But preferably the $150 420 if even the Epson’s processing is adequate.

 

[JohnRice]

Dave, the 820 might be your best value. The 420 lacks Dolby Vision, if that matters.

 

[DaveF]

Projectors don’t support Dolby Vision.

 

[JohnRice]

I’m finally making the movie to 4K myself. I’m not big on video early adopting. Hopefully I’ll get my HT to full bore Atmos, at least in the next year. No projectors for me, though.